OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Spaniards (Bultaco, Ossa, Montesa etc) => Topic started by: 414VG on October 13, 2010, 03:29:19 am
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I spent a while today finally trying to get me newly rebuilt 414VG started for the 1st time. It wont start, think the spark is too weak and i will try another coil tommorrow.
Main reason for this topic is that when kicking the bike over vigouresly, it seems to quite often go *soft* ie i think the clutch is slipping during the kick over process. Could this be correct and what should i check? I assume the clutch springs may be weak ??
Any help thanks,
Sandy
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Hi Sandy
Had this problem many years ago with friends bike,take clutch apart and see if the plates are burred over where they locate in clutch basket if they are this will stop them pressing together correctly,try filing ends of plates level and refit also check plates are not burned/scorched if this has happend then new plates are wanted.If every thing is in order then try new springs.
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I'd try backing off the clutch adjustement before I pulled it apart, just to see what happens, then I'd move onto montemans suggestions, as for spark every montesa I have looks like its got weak spark but they all run just fine
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Yes, back off on the clutch adjustment, as the clutch cable adjustment might be
partially engaging the clutch, causing the kicker to feel "soft" when kicking thru.
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Thanks guys, the clutch cable is loose. :( Looks like i need to strip out the clutch basket for a look.
Sandy
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Does the clutch activating arm have some free play with the cable disconnected? If not you may have inadvertently put the clutch pusher rod 180o out which means the relief in the rod for the activating arm is in the wrong place. Just a thought :-\
If you dismantled the plates completely they may be still dry between the plates (they need oil I believe to bite) also the plate order is critical.
One of my Trials bikes a Cota 350 would sometimes feel soft (slip) when kick starting (driving the clutch in reverse) but never ever slipped with the engine running ??? never did find the cause.
To test a Motoplat spark strength remove the ground electrode from a good spark plug and then see if the spark will jump from the centre electrode to the earth (with the plug grounded naturally) you may need to test in darkness to see the spark. The spark should jump that gap if the system is healthy. I assume you ensured that all paint etc was off at least one frame engine mount and coresponding engine mounting point and also off the coil mount. I know everyone knows that but had to ask. I normally run an earth wire directly from the stator base to the coil mounting bolt (ensures a solid earth). Motoplats like most early electronic ignitions have little energy at kicking speed. Hope that helps.
Greg
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Swapped the clutch basket for a known good one from another bike, kicks fine now, but bugger me i cannot get this old bitch to start. Spark is ok, plug is wet, my right knee is beat..!!!
Sandy :'(
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AHHHH Sandy you need to master the montesa starting swing by the sounds of it, they start easy but are not easy to start! I'm sure most monty riders would agree with me !
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I can offer but a couple of tricks. First is to slowly turn the motor (and I mean slowly!) over.
This will bring in a standing wave of mix which will help in starting. The second is the old Maico
trick of of leaning the bike way over to flood the carb and aid in starting. I have used the first method
with good results. I was once moving the kickarm thru slowly by hand when it popped and scared the hell
out of me! The third way is a hill.......
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Thanks guys, its not as if i havent started a 414 before. The motor is all rebuilt too, might try the hill method today!
Sandy.
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The third way is a hill.......
For the life of me I just can't bump-start mine! Just too much compression. If it stalls going into a corner I'm usually knackered and the only thing that'll light the fire is to find a mound to lean on and kick...... :P
I use Jared's method to start all mine and it seems to work good. Four or five really slow pushes of the kicker, get it to TDC and give it everything. Cold they'll usually go in about six goes.
Bangin' away at the kicker is just a waste of energy. If it wont light, something's wrong...... :(
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Mine usualy start in the first three kicks if they dont they wont, I use the same techinque as cappra flood shit outa it and then if it wont start throw it off a cliff!
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I use a different method kick it quick and fast many times (like pumping it)you need a good strong right leg for this method it has always worked for me,stubborn bikes have taken quite a few kicks but always fired(guys i am all for trying new ways so next time i will give your way a go).Monts do have a knack to starting them but we all know that,the last resort is bumping it if it does not fire then then somthing is deffo wrong,Sandy just a thought woodruff key/timing all ok?.
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Swapped the clutch basket for a known good one from another bike, kicks fine now, but bugger me i cannot get this old bitch to start. Spark is ok, plug is wet, my right knee is beat..!!!
Sandy :'(
Imagine the first day with your brand new H6 360 and having this happen.
Very first time.
Just lay on the ground and cried . [and kicked my feet]
Had no trouble after that .
I think that they just hate english speakers.
Mike
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Motoplate are average when new , when there 30 years old there shit.
Make sure the stator is freshly earthed, Take the carby off , spray some start you barstard into a cap and pour into inlet, If it fires your motoplate is no good.
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My VF250 and 250H7 need the kick it quick and fast and it fires about 4th kick from cold 1st or 2nd kick warm.
The VB360 I use the method described by Cappra and Ross. Prime the crankcase with several slow (very slow) kicks then bring to compression ease over compression return kick start for a full stroke and kick it as if the entire future of the human race depended on it. When the motoplat was slowly dying I was resorting to pushing which involves a large hill and several grids full of pushers otherwise the rear wheel locks solid.
When I had my VB360 back in '77 I don't remember this problem. Either I was much stronger and fitter then (a dead set certainty) or my memory has failed (almost equally certain)
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Blow me ,the bloody flywheel key has sheared. I had to use a bodged one from memory and its not been right.........You got any just now Jared??
Cheers Sandy.
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Ah yes the infamous woodruff key spent many a happy ::) hour doing them mostly on other peoples monts as i used to have ones made out of stronger steel but i have none left(just looked otherwise you could have had one sandy)so i now need some as well :-[.
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Sandy,
I have new keys. Shoot me an e-mail. I would suggest lapping the flywheel to the shaft
with valve grinding compound. (course and fine) makes a world of difference as it increases
the contact area. I also heat the flywheel a bit and then mount and torque. I also have new
left handed lockwashers as well.
Jared
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Motoplate are average when new , when there 30 years old there shit.
I've had no trouble with them. What makes them shit? ???
I dont think having stronger woodruff keys are the answer. The keys job is not to hold the fly-wheel in place. It is simply to align the fly-wheel for the timing. It's the taper of the crank/flywheel/ nut torque that holds it in place.
Harder woodruff keys will only damage the keyway (on the crank) more when it slips which is a major head ache.
Be carefull that you dont go crazy when lapping the fly-wheel/crank. You can go too far and have the fly-wheel pull in to the point where it's hitting the screws that hold the staor plate...... ::)
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Motoplate are average when new , when there 30 years old there shit.
I've had no trouble with them. What makes them shit? ???
I dont think having stronger woodruff keys are the answer. The keys job is not to hold the fly-wheel in place. It is simply to align the fly-wheel for the timing. It's the taper of the crank/flywheel/ nut torque that holds it in place.
Harder woodruff keys will only damage the keyway (on the crank) more when it slips which is a major head ache.
Be carefull that you dont go crazy when lapping the fly-wheel/crank. You can go too far and have the fly-wheel pull in to the point where it's hitting the screws that hold the staor plate...... ::)
Your quite right Ross but i can only go from experience as every montesa i had new from the factory sheared its key(and i was not the only one to experience this) after a few meetings maybe i was just unlucky but with the stronger key i never had and still haven't had any further problems with them in fact i bought a 414 about 8 years ago off a guy who could not stop it from shearing keys i cleaned up flywheel/crank tapers and put one of the stronger keys in and have not had any problems since.The most important part IS the flywheel/taper fit as you say.
Motoplats as a whole have always been very good never had any problems with mine even after years of no use,i do need a motoplat but that is because i am missing one off a spare engine.
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One of my 414's was forever shearing keyways. I'd done all the things like re-lapping it and such but nothing would keep the fly-wheel from moving. With only a tenth of my tether left ??? I discovered.....
.....that there was no more thread left on the crank to get any more purchase on the fly-wheel. It just couldn't tighten up any more. I ended up using a special washer that sat neatly inside the fly-wheel but had an internal size that would let it go over the crank shaft. Since putting this washer in (or I could have had a little more thread added to the crank but this would truelly be a pain) I've never had the fly-wheel move.
The keyway will never stop one from moving.....
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your right ross for those that dont know the key size is 3x13mm available in geejay packs from any good bolt store and can be heat treated hardened if u think it helps with an oxy and a bit of time.
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Motoplate are average when new , when there 30 years old there shit.
I've had no trouble with them. What makes them shit? ???
If you had no trouble yet your lucky
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New key, loctited flywheel to shaft, timing spot on and i simply cant get this bitch to start. Dont know what else to try.......forkin beat with it.
Sandy
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If you had no trouble yet your lucky
That's the sort of explanation I thought I'd get...... ::)
Might be time to try an electrical system from one of your 414's that are goers Sandy (you have about ten of them dont you? :D).
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;D ;D Finally got her going today..!!!! Cant quite figure it excactly but may have been too much fuel lying in the cranckcase, and also earthed the stator to frame as per montmans advice, anyway its crisp as buggery and feels spot on. Thanks to all who contributed. Off to get pissed now. :D :D
Sandy.