OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: DJRacing on January 06, 2008, 03:24:20 pm
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Linkage- Is it really Vintage?
How about another debate? Pick the side you want to be on and have your say. Just remember to keep it all fun, this isn’t suppose to be a shit fight but light humoured and fun. Keep the politics out and dial the dampening in, if you are happy to have sag where you shouldn’t, then join the debate and bounce along on your side of the track!!!!
Linkage- Is it really Vintage??
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My opinion, from a newbie to VMX.
Who gives a rats arse? As long as the bike is 20 years or older and the bloke on it has the right attitude, come on out for a ride. Jebus you did well mate, flogged me! Wanna beer?
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out of interest who made the linkage decision any way
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Good question. Honda was first to put it into production in '81 if you don't count the uni trak as a true linkage rear end.
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Yes.
The first linkage bikes are over a quarter of a century old now.
To claim that a CR-RB is 'just like a 2008 model' is laughable - look at the double discs, power valve, USD cartridge forks, safety seat, and wildly different linkage design of a CR-RK (only 8 years later - still an old bike by most standards), and try to claim that the 81 model is 'the same'.
In terms of design features, a XL250RF is more like the CR250RK than the CR250RB is...
Further, if the anti-rear-linkage argument was successful, where does that leave the YZ125H, with water-cooling but a non-linakage rear? Is it more or less 'vintage' than a RX250X, which is air-cooled but with a linkage rear?
VMX is about celebrating old dirt bikes. It is about looking back at the steps that have brought the modern dirt-bike world to where it is today.
To quibble over whether one 25+ year old dirt bike is more or less vintage than another, is pointless and destructive.
For racing, it is reasonable to seperate the linkage rear bikes from the non-linkage rear ones (Evo vs pre-85) as the early 1980s were a time of rapid improvement in MX bikes - so while the early water-cooled and/or linkage bikes weren't neccasarly a huge improvement over their air-cooled, non-linkage predecessors (coughyamahacough), they do mark the turning point - and one that is easily identifiable and enforcable at scrutiny.
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I think we would all agree that the linkage bikes are here to stay in VMX, and of course there is nothing wrong with that but, I thought we could have a good debate on the subject, not a poll, this is surpose to be tongue in cheek, have a laugh with it, pull some punches. Just come out with afirmative or negative and why??
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i think they have a place in vmx i have two cr250 REs one ive had from new out of all my bikes this one means more to me than the other 12 twin shock that i have its 24 years old now so i think it fits into vmx if we stopped these bikes from vmx then vmx will die in ten years time ,as we get older and our injurys get worse guys who rode in the early to late 80s will take over then it will be guys from the 90s next and so on .
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One of the things that defined Vintage Motocross was that the bikes looked, felt and performed vastly different to the modern alternative. Reliving or reviving the days when the sport wasn't as easy was the challenge that VMX offered.
By introducing the newer divisions too quickly we run the risk of obliterating the line that seperated Vintage from Modern.
The argument that a 20 year old bike is vastly inferior to a modern bike is quite valid but if you factor in that shock absorber and linkage swaps, cartridge and USD forks, V force reeds, modern port work and pipes and programmable digital ignitions can very easily be adapted to a pre 90 linkage bike, that diferential becomes even blurrier.
I'm not at all against our sport progressing, as I have often been accused. What I am calling for is to slow down the introduction of new classes. With the calls to introduce pre 90 likely to be heard we are introducing new divisions quicker than modern bikes are progressing. At this rate within 10 years we will have caught up with modern technology. Then where do we go?
My call (again) is to leave the progress until the Evo and Pre 85 classes are fully utilised. As it is right now Evo is running at about 40% capacity and Pre '85 less than that. We need to look after the future of our sport by carefully introducing new rules. If Pre 90 does come in the eligibility rules need to be bulletproofed by stipulating exactly what can and can't be used from newer models. If we don't you can kiss what we now know as vintage racing goodbye forever.
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Here in Us we have some movements to such classes. In our local club in Texas, TVRC we have been running a decade class for..well, about a decade. While it seemed like a good idea back then, realize that now a 98YZF400 is a decade bike-and who of us could really tell a YZF450 from a 426,400?....As far as pre-90-it may be fun to have some of these bikes included regionally at meets, but there is a consequence. To me, only the last 500cc bikes from this era matter(JMO).-and if you look at what is happening now, with SVRG, AVDRA split from AHRMA-and TVRC now running modern support( guess who is a big TVRC sponsor-initials are V.I.)-with the decade bikes, just scored separately...well, I am going to miss some TVRC races. Hell, there wasa "practice day" at the local mx night track I used to race on( home of 12+ fatal accidents since 96)-and this track is not that ridable on even an 83-84 bike. Well, everyone was riding their modern bikes.
Hell, is this vintage? This is about old bikes, not old people. We now have some 20s -40s yr olds starting vintage racing-mainly on the 80-81 bikes(EVO?)-but then they go on to build vintage(pre-75) , and historic(pre-78) bikes as well. The era of disc to 90 is tough anyway. Many bikes of the era clearly outperforemd others in given years. The reality would be all on 89 model bikes( by 89 most has USD forks-so just hide the 2008 forks to look like 89 USD forks) the rear suspension was close( a shock rebuild away from modern), the ignition, powervalve etc was there. Hell, I could take an 89CR250 and have it look very stock -or"era" and have a bike performing like the last two stroke 250s, why because it wouldnt take much.
Then we have the motive, for many it may be what is cheap( which is important)-but the reality is it is driven by suppliers who can maybe make a few bucks with reasonalble accessories-or at least not lose their ass. How bout the historical signifigance of this era? Well, I am 40 in July and frankly, rode these bikes-but can spaek little of their historical signifigance( with a few exceptions-like 85CR500, 86KX500, 87Cr250-but that's about it). We still have many pre 85 bikes to get going(though here in US we need to allow a retrofit of drum to original disc brake bikes of pre85)-and support the classes we have.
It is not yet time to have these bikes in vintage racing-they will obsolete the others, due to thier performance, and the ease of parts, and cost in many cases.
There is a market for an old farts class of mdern bikes on smoother tracks or in a club, but that , is not vintage racing. Just the opinion of one dissenting American(Yank?), that an $3 will get cup of java ;D
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Linkage; Is it really vintage??
my opinion=nup! no way!
my heart belongs to the pre-75 era although i still have a lot to learn.
i'd love a pre 60's bike but my knowledge of these old beauties is still too limited.
whats the point Vandy?
take a look at a pre 60 or earlier and they just screem VINTAGE!
even a pre 70 has that vintage look/feel to it.
they're a raw lump of a thing with crap gearboxs/suspension/brakes & ergo's etc
now the linkage bikes definately in my books have a much more modern feel to them and are capable of handling a modern mx track but the earlier ones may struggle with supercross.
vintage to me means the raw unrefined lumps of bikes
and not the
more capable streamlined machines.
Vandy says NO!
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Hallelujah brothers! At last the silent majority have decided to speak up about the dumbing down of vintage motocross.
The whole thing about the sport is to celebrate and era that has long gone. By continually introducing newer and newer classes we are distancing ourselves from the very reason that vintage became so popular. Learn to ride a 7" and 4" travel bike and as other posters have stated, challenge yourself. Anyone can ride a modern bike. I sold my evo 465 Yamaha because I realised that it was too far from what I thought vintage racing was. A 1989 Honda CR500 with V reeds, fat pipe and trick suspension is not a vintage bike. Let's get real.
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When did "linkage" turn into "pre-90"!? ???
We've already got a pre-85 class, which is mostly populated by bikes with linkage rear ends.
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i think they have a place in vmx i have two cr250 REs one ive had from new out of all my bikes this one means more to me than the other 12 twin shock that i have its 24 years old now so i think it fits into vmx if we stopped these bikes from vmx then vmx will die in ten years time ,as we get older and our injurys get worse guys who rode in the early to late 80s will take over then it will be guys from the 90s next and so on .
When did a linkage debate turn to pre-90? Nathan-right about here I would say.( see above)-sorry, there were not many of us riding in late 80s/early 90s(until I found Vintae racing in 91, then again raced modern only in 96-97). So, yes it will have to come from newer influx, yet you have to know that from about 66-76 the birth rate was lower(with 68 and 76 being two very lows)-due to many factors, mostly the very dedicated raced much from say 86-93-then this Mc Grath guy came along and brougt attention back to mx.
Form what I have seen, riders new to VMX make little deleineation between one vintage bike or another-particularly the 85-91 era. Frankly, there is little to romance about this era, other than puke graphics, too big hair etc( I say this as one who had the puke graphics and too big hair), not like someone a bit older recalling the fun they had on an early YZ, or one of the first RMs, or even one of the first waterpumpers.
These are still cool bikes, like an 89 KTM500 I saw posted-and should be ridden. In fact, many of these bikes can be bought cheap, and make great practice bikes for those who have time to practice-saving wear and tear on the earlier bikes.
Well, at least I am not the only one...hell, I got to race an 89 RM250 when new, I only got to race a 77 Maico(which I dreamed of having at age 9) in vintage racing-and there's still a lot of old bikes I want to ride/race someday. We can get people in with the EVO/Pre-85 bikes-and those who like the scene will expand and gain interest in the older bikes.
Maybe Vintage Motocross is not for everyone, but the passionate will do it.
It has been said that VMX will die out when the baby boomers get too old to do it. By keeping focus on important bikes, and adding new classes when needed-we can prevent this, and continue our sport long past these predictions.
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We need to get rid of this mentality where we need to find a place in the vintage world for every bike. Instead of building a class for your bike, build a bike for one of the many classes available!
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In the automotive industry, Vintage is commonly defined as a car built between the start of 1919 and the end of 1930.
There is little debate about the start date of the Vintage period, but the end date is a matter of a little more debate. The British definition is strict about 1930 being the cut-off, while some American sources prefer 1925 since it is the pre-classic car period as defined by the Classic Car Club of America. So how have we come to a point in time that we nominate anything post 1930 as being vintage?
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2008-1/1293707/vintage.jpg)
If you apply the 25 year rule which many so commonly do, we go back to 1982 (ish). So the XE Falcon was around, vintage I don’t think so. (perhaps the Holden boys may think so!) Holden had the VH Commodore, Shitbox yes, Vintage NO. One of the best movies ever made in Australia was released, Running On Empty, Classic yes, Vintage not. So we come to the first of the linkage rear ends, whilst there design may have come from engineers born in the vintage era, they are no more vintage than the XE falcon, even if Dick Johnson drove it on the mountain. Perhaps Dick maybe considered vintage now days? ;)
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It actally makes me think . If was not for Firko and other old schoolers that actually lived in that era and actually raced in that era , what would happen to Vintage racing ? Some smart and smooth talker will mend , bend , push until his semi modern bike is made legal , not thinking what impact that could have for the future of history. They then move on , and leave their mess behind . ( perhaps to go on and revolutionize the kilting or knitting fraternity). Thanks Firko and all the others for calling a spade a spade. ;)
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Is Linkage Vintage? No. But is linkage OK to race in VMX? Yes.
To me, it's what Firko says, Vintage as a concept, or a philosophy even, is Pre 75 (OK, Pre 78 maybe). It's wildly different to the bikes of the 80s and 90s, and I think we have to preserve that concept. I'm doing my bit, my only old bikes now are a 78 125 and a 74 125.
But... the 80s were a time of real evolution too. The bikes from 78 to 88 changed dramatically and it's a time in history as valid as any other. And I LIKED all that big hair and lycra - some of the girls at gym back then really had my attention!! And I actually painted an XT500 fluoro yellow and pink. Sad but true!
Vintage is about those halcyon times from the 60s and 70s. It's about a different world, a time now lost. That said, there is definitely a place for celebrating people's youth, be that 40 years ago, or 30, or even 20. And the VMX scene is where we can do that.
So, I say we NEED Evo, Pre 85 and Pre 90 to keep the whole VMX scene growing. But true 'Vintage' is sacrosanct and it's Pre 78!!! Not sure how to really cement that idea in people's minds tho.
Imagine an '80s MX' raceday, all those luvverly fast fluoro graphiced linkage suspended, water cooled rocketships with their studly riders being tended by a bevy of lycra clad, big haired beauties? I'd nearly buy a CR Honda for that. Nearly...
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And what would that 80's big haired motocross do for the vintage movement Graeme? It'd be the first nail in the coffin.
I'm passionbate about this and know I'm right. Any more divisions introduced to the sport will, within a few short years, kill everything I believe the vintage movement stands for. Just think of Old Schools CR500 example and it all comes home. These bikes will kill the sport, full stop.
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Oh c'mon now, how could that happen??? The sport is the people involved. As long as there are blokes who want to celebrate the Pre 78s then there will be classes and races for them. Who the Hell cares if some big girls blouse wants to race an 86 CR500 and pretend he's on a real bike??? You could have events for all those girly newcomers who want to restore an 89 KX125, and there'll still be old schoolers with garage queen 72 maicos and 68 BSAs and so on. Why would a bloke racing a Pre 75 bike suddenly think "Wow, I've seen the light, gotta get me one of them 88s?" But a bloke with an 88 just might think "Geez, those old bikes are sooo cool, gotta get me one of them".
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I think the point being made Graeme is that there is a strong chance that someone will want pre 95 soon. It's all moving too bloody fast! Why not as Mark says, build bikes to suit the current classes not new classes for the bike you've got tucked away in your shed. Utilize the classes available now without adding to the mix. Is the intention to have five year cutoffs to define our sport? Right now we have a linkage class( pre 85), a tein shock class (evo) pre 80 in Victoria, pre 78 for those who want a bit of both worlds and pure vintage (pre 75, 70 and 65). If another linkage class is introduced it'll all get crowded and one or more division will suffer. I'm blown away that there are people who don't seem to care about or understand that flooding the sport is detrimental to the extreme.
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I've got to agree with Firko and Yamaboy, we don't need pre 90. We've only just introduced pre 85, give pre 85 and evo a chance to grow to their full potential. If you want to ride a pre 90 dirt bike, get yourself a modern bike cos they aren't that different in lap times. We need more people like Firko to stand up for what vintage is about before newcomers to the sport push it into the modern era and pre 78, pre 75, etc are forgotten about. it's too soon to push for newer classes than what we already have.
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Guys, slow down here, the debate doesnt have anything to do with introducing new classes. As I understand it at the moment the majority of clubs allow up to 1985. So with 1985 as a cut off point bikes with linkages are racing in vmx already. What the debate is that I have proposed is; Linkage, is it vintage? Maybe my wording should have included the "1985" cut off point. But in no way was I suggesting or implying adding more classes to vmx.
My mistake for not including the year cut off point.
I should have titled the debate "Linkage; pre1985, is it really vintage"
Sorry guys :-[ :-\
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if i join the army can i have a submarine
:(NO
::) WHY NOT
8)CAUSE WERE THE GENERALS AND WE MADE UP THE RULES
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Linkage bikes are now 25+ years old so i believe there is a place in vintage racing for them. Most of us who raced prior to 1985 are now 40+ and want to race the bikes we rode in our youth, which for some are pre 85 linkage bikes. I think that's what makes people passionate about vintage motocross is the fact they can relive their youth on their favourite old bike. Some of those guys will buy older model bikes as well so they can do more than 1 class at the races.
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OK my go. Been in vintage 18 months. 41 years old in Feb. Started racing '81 on a mini. Didn't really take any notice of the big bikes (evo's). So '82 linkage bike cr125 in juniors.I never knew anything else.I am now very pasionate about all bikes from all eras.I have a bike i can race in almost every class, i will have a pre '70 ready this year. From where i am standing, it wont be pre '85 or pre '90 that will kill vintage, its the people getting involved now and in the future that will kill it. I think i am a bit of a minority in the fact that i have embraced bikes older than my 'era' (i do hope i am wrong), but some people that are on the fringe or thinking about riding vintage would tend to go for an evo or pre '85 because they can relate to a bike of THEIR past not yours or yours.If their was a pre '90 class i would go out and buy one to race but i wouldn't park an older bike to do it. I always take three bikes with me. Maybe if you have a pre '85 or pre '90 it must be your second bike and your primary has to be '77 or older.I think we as a vmx movement should be thinking of ways to incorporate the enevitable. If you think otherwise you are in denial.As well i would like to ask or maybe challenge fellow vmxers to get a pre '70 bike and bring it to keep them alive. I would like fellow members that are around my age to say what era bikes they ride regularly. I must say that i dont care if there is no pre '90 but would welcome it if it was introduced. This is nothing like what you wanted DJ sorry! To put towards your original thread, for me, linkage IS vintage. 18 years old racing a '85 CR500. Ah those were the days. I employ guys younger than my cr500, that makes me and my bike old!
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Quote DJ " bikes with linkages are in VMX already "
Yep and that was the first nail in the coffin >:(
Long live true vintage pre 75 :) I can accept ( & enjoy ) pre 78 and pre 81 but who the hell opened the gates and let those semi modern over suspended ,over braked kettles into our sport >:(
I think its a Kop out ::) "O but we never rode those old shitters , we started racing in 198??? "
Fair enough so why get involved in a sport and then do all you can to change that sport from its original concept ???
Over in the land of the long white cloud & the long dark welfare state ( North island only , South island does it different again ) there are too trains of thought . Up north the cut off is 1980 or air cooled drum braked twin shocked , in the middle & bottom the cut off is pre 86 both outfits run great events obviously the pre 86 series attacts bigger numbers but also tends to attract young riders ( many younger than the bikes they ride :-X
I admire the northern Classic Scamble club lads for sticking to their guns and not allowing the kettles in :) every season ( and they have been running for a few ) still more bikes are being restored or just pulled out of the shed and ridden :)
As Firko says we need to build bikes for the classes we have not keep adding classes to keep Johnny come latley happy .
The central Kiwi Vintage MX runs an awsome series where the true vintage bikes and misserable Bastards like me can co exist with the Kettle crowd amicably.
The people all share a common passion some are just miss guided in thinking their kettles are proper vintage bikes ::)
There in now and i dont think we will get rid of them :( but lets hope the rot stops there, Pre 90 yea right ::)
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I think some of you blokes should go back and read DJ's original post, your waaaay off topic with your obvious passion for your chosen era.
now my turn, i agree with Brad i'm nearly 45 and i started riding at 13 on a XR75. my era was early to mid eighties and thats my passion, i like all bikes as i am a bike nut, but i do like to ride my eighties CR's and that's my choice (the same as what you blokes choose to ride) there is no right and wrong we will all have to agree to disagree. we can all co-exist is some way or another like it or not.
the sport is too small and its a niche market in OZ, its never going to be mainstream because it only appeals (mostly)to those that were in the era at that time. so what if someone like something different, who the fork do you think you all are to try to change their mind or dictate what they Should or should not be riding according to your rules.
i also don't want to ride against 20 y/o's in modern MX, I want to ride with blokes my own age with a same attitude
young pricks with superman capes on their backs and are still fully sponsors by their parents without a family and mortgage are too gung ho for me at my stage of life. whos wants to barrell into a first corner and be taken out by some crazy who decides he wants that $20 trophy at all costs.
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This was all started by a Kiwi. They are trying to WHITE ANT you all. This is WMD all over again. It's like the Pre 90 linkage bike caught in the trench with an AK 47! It's like the Pre 85 bikes are the MWU and the post 85 are Patrick Stevadores. It's like the Pre 85 bikes are Little Red Riding Hood and the post 85 bikes are The Big Bad...........I'm ringing the PM. You know. The little guy off the Midday show! >:(
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This was all started by a Kiwi. They are trying to WHITE ANT you all. This is WMD all over again. I'm ringing the PM. You know. The little guy off the Midday show........ >:(
Dont blame the Kiwis :o its his Irish side ;)
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i agree with maico 31 and brad090 the current setup is running along quite nice i spent 3 years trying to get pre 85 in up here in queensland it finally came in 8) my excuse i have been racing pre75 for 22 years
and i just wanted to ride or race the bikes that i rode in the eighties before i become old and decrepid :'(
i still race my pre 75 and 78 evo and pre 85 and if i had a pre 70 i would race that too 8) and if pre 90 came in up here i would race that too i enjoy racing all classes its good to ride them all you can really feel the advancment in technology (big word ) :P i think anything later than pre 90 defeats the purpose
thats my fuggin bit ;D
kawasakis and suzukis rule maicos and hondas are for tools ;D
it ran last time i started it ;D
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You're unreal H-Buddy. So what if i ride a kawasaki, suzuki, honda and maico... Does that make me special? I'm not racist.
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Linkage; Pre85, Is it really vintage??
Yes, of course it is.
Its a natural progression of eras' (errors ;)) to the world of VMX.
The cut off as we know it, 1985, now if my memory is right I was wearing flared jeans ::) or was it stove pipes ;D?? Oh bugger I can't remember now. But I know I wouldnt wear either now. But if I was alot older would I look at a 1974.5 Maico with layed down rear shocks and say "thats to modern for vintage"? No definately not.
Lets go back in time, the year is 1975 and a father and a son are at a motocross, and the son says to his dad, "holy shit look at that modern bike, its' rear shock goes up under the tank and seat". The father replies with, "That bike shouldnt be allowed to race boy, its' just not right, bikes should have 2 rear shocks". The son walks away thinking stupid ol' man.... Hail the YZ-B
Weather we like it or not linkage is here and it shows how modern bikes got to where they are today. It also shows where the old bike went over the course of time. And I believe this is more to the point of the vintage motocross scene than what we would believe at times.
1985;Yes the cut off date is spot on for Vintage Motocross. 1985 and its linkage bikes have a big part to play in the history of motocross and without them the whole story of motocross would be lacking the modern side of vintage motocross.
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love the father and son bit DJ,
that scenario has crossed my mind in several forms over the years
BUT,
to my way of thinking, if vintage has all these different years of classification to it,
then so do the tracks upon which the bikes will be most enjoyed!
the evo bikes in my opinion would be the winners as they're the most likely to be able to handle both a modern and true vintage track.
the linkage brigade being more closely related to the modern stuff would get bored more quickly on a downpipe friendly track.
vintage bike=vintage track
let the linkages run as a novelty race on modern race days.
oops! i meant support class.
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its ok john i am only tooling around ;D to get a reaction, i like all bikes i think ::)
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This thread is insane. What was supposed to be good natured discussion has become a bandwagon for the evangelicals warning us of the pure evil that is pre-90 racing. This is doubly bizarre as (AFAIK) every state has either adopted it, or rejected it, so the debate isn't even on the table anywhere in the country.
Here's a question that I know won't get answered:
Look at the bikes and riders who were racing VMX in '88, and tell me whether the equivilant bikes are riders are being catered for in 2008?
If we were to call pre-90 racing "Classic" or "Clunker" or "Satan" racing, with no use of the word "vintage" would that be OK or not?
It really seems to me that some of the guys who were around at the start of the Aussie VMX movement, think that they own it outright. Dont get me wrong, I'm happy to go with majority rule, but "Because I said so" doesn't cut it with me.
There's a market for pre-90 racing. Maybe it's too soon to be a part of the VMX scene, but maybe the VMX scene also needs to be wary of remaining stagnant while the world moves around it?
Has anyone here got any experience with historic car racing or road bike racing?
What do they do?
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I'm passionbate about this and know I'm right.
Anyone familiar with the fable of the 5 blind men and the elephant? It seems quite appropriate here.
(It is on wiki, if you are interested)
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I'm passionbate about this and know I'm right. Any more divisions introduced to the sport will, within a few short years, kill everything I believe the vintage movement stands for. Just think of Old Schools CR500 example and it all comes home. These bikes will kill the sport, full stop.
Copy VMX W.A, which has a strict pre '75 only policy (Pre'78,EVO,Pre'85 are all lumped together as a sideshow class in the B.S.A clubs modern MX series)
My advice to retiring riders is sell your machines on to younger riders conditional on them joining VMX club racing.
It's like Holden HQ racing, in twenty years time an HQ will still be an HQ but probably driven by a younger person brought to the sport by an older person,
maybe including a junior class will get your young ones into it ?
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Passionate bunch aren't we? Going back to the original question, I'll say again that linkage is not vintage.
But I think that vintage in this sense is not the concept of a rolling date (ie 25 years ago or whatever). Of course eventually bikes like the first YZ400 4-stroke become 'vintage' to someone but that's only in the sense it's an old bike. To me, the original vintage motocross as pushed by guys like Firko celebrates a specific era in the evolution of the dirtbike scene. It's about what happened in the 60s and 70s which is a very distinct era. It's like say the Hippy phenomenon. Sure there are hippies now, but the flower power generation was a particular period in time.
So, true vintage MX is about twin shock bikes from Pre 78 (speaking of which, how's that register going, Mark?). It's about celebrating a very specific time, and that should never change. Vintage in that sense must be kept pure and venerated for what it is. Maybe in the years to come younger guys join in as the older ones stop riding or take up lawn bowls and veging in the sun. And maybe not.
As the years pass, of course new guys will want to celebrate their youth and join the fold, and YZF400s will become the tool of choice. But that doesn't mean that suddenly the spirit of true vintage has been lost.
And note I am not arguing about what classes to have now or next week. I am arguing that true vintage is twin shocked, drum braked, air cooled bikes and a celebration of a time in history. And linkage is not vintage.
However, there must be some way to preserve that concept AND still embrace and encourage the introduction of new classes. Given the notion of a rolling timeframe, we have to accept that 1988 is 20 years ago, and that means that riders of those bikes are near or into their 40s, an age when all of a sudden the old rosy glasses thing leads them to want to go out and buy the old bike they used to ride and go flog it round a paddock with a few other old farts instead of ageing gracefully and putting some more garden gnomes in the front yard.
Why should these guys be forced to have to ride what older blokes think is OK? It's OK for Firko and me, VMX does embrace the bikes we rode as yoofs. But what about Johnny X who used to race a 1989 CR250 and who now at the age of 39 wants to go get one and race it with a few mates? Is he forced to wait until eventually all of us cark it and then he can do something? Bollocks.
It's my argument, once we start talking classes, that we need to preserve true vintage, but also allow for the effect of the 20 or 25 year rule. That is, every so often, we should open up to include later models. And I personally think that Pre 90 is coming. Even if that means supporting it as a separate concept, like my earlier thread about 80s MX. Or just call it, as Nathan suggested, Satan's MX...
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You put it in persective, for sure. I think it is just too soon-and a point that was missed was that there really aren't that many 36-42 year olds compared to the older crowd, and the younger crowd. I raced an RM250 in 89, but even that is really really close.
I like the idea of an obsolete series, etc for anything two stroke at least say 15 yrs old, but again-think the McGrath era will be the next celebrated. To really split hairs, I wouldn't have as much of a problem with up to 87 bikes. That does ,though leave the 87Cr250-with cartridge forks(though how many of these are machined and on bikes now anyway?), but gen 1 powervalve etc. The 88-89 CR250 was another leap.
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What about up to and including pre'78 is true vintage,i dont think there is an argument there. Then lets call the later classes something else, same as cars sort of like Bahnsys scale in this thread. Either put evo into the vintage mold or if thats too hard put it the next 'class' being maybe 'classic'? And pre '85 and pre '90 when it eventually comes in maybe 'retro'.All under the envelope of VMX. No doubt vintage has to be preserved, and no doubt pre '90 will eventually be here.Lets use our collective heads to make sure its done right. I still think if there is pre '90 catered for then it should be a persons second bike, not the only bike. I would like some feedback(constructive not ,thats a shit idea!) on this please
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Reading back over this thread it would seem that many may think that I'm a frothing at the mouth pre 75 Nazi with not the slightest respect for Evo or pre 85 class bikes or their owners. In reality I have no objection to the linkage classes whatsoever. It's a natural progression and a positive addition to the VMX movement. In fact I have a genuine soft spot for those 80s bikes, especially the big bores who were fighting a serious horspower war at the time.
My rant is purely a plea to slow down the introduction of newer cut off dates (pre 90 for instance) until the current class structure is being managed properly and the grids full. Any good businessman will tell you that a business must be running at full potential and the books in the black before any thought of expansion is entered into. I believe the vintage "business" isn't running at anything near its full potential so until it is, we should all work towards getting the "company" working properly.
Of course pre 90 is inevitable but let's leave it for five years. During that time we can devise methods of preventing the "modernising" of late 80's era bikes that will definitely happen, using Old Schools CR500 test case. If those issues aren't addressed Vintages premier division will indeed clone into a class for old blokes rather than old bikes.
As Jeff Fenech once said ....."I love youse all".
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I like what you are saying 090(brad) about the whole concept of naming the era. As we have Vintage MotoCross (VMX), why not call or talk about the next era of bikes as "EMX" (Evolution MotoCross). I do not mean anything like a break away from VMX, but more as a sub-group under the same heading.
For an example, the VMX magazine could have a chapter/section in it called EMX which would cater for the evolution bikes and riders. Once again I strongly say that I am not suggesting any from of a split, in fact the complete opposite.
If someone asked me what sport or passions I liked, I could say, 'I restore VMX bikes" but "I race EMX", or something along those lines.
Yes I know this sound a bit strange, but it does give the distinction between the two eras. And I do believe that maybe its time to look at that. As some of the members here have suggested that Vintage is a place in time, and the newer bikes have their own place in time, so maybe they should have their own grouping.
When vmx first started it was fine to call the bikes 'vintage' but now as time moves on and LTR bikes have come on-board they are grouped under the same banner, but what will we in another 20yrs be calling the bikes that get raced....'Vintage'? or would we feel comfitable calling the older bikes vintage and the next set of bikes EMX? It's just a state of mind at the start of anything new to think that is stupid or dumb, but think back 40 odd years ago when a Japanese man called a motorbike a "HONDA".... what a stupid and dumb name that is?? 40yrs latter and you think nothing of it.
Will anyway its all just food for thought :)
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I don't like the idea of VMX mag being segregated into eras - I love the fact that it covers all old dirt bikes without prejudice.
I assume that I am not alone in this view, given it's indisputable status as 'The Bible' among us old dirt bike lovers.
So why are old dirt bike race meets so different?
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Nathan I'm not trying to to divide or change anything. I used the VMX mag as an example of how an era could be discribed and delivered to the masses, that is all. The VMX mag already caters for these (evolution) bikes. As I said, it was only an example.
All I am suggesting is that maybe that era of bike could be known as (for want of a better title) EMX. They (EMX Bikes) would still come under the great name of VMX but just as a sub-category. I am not trying to detract anything from them or glorify them in anyway but merely title their era.
The bikes before 1975 should be known as 'Vintage' as that is where it all started and the bikes from 1975 to 1985 could be known as the 'Evolution' era, hence EMX. I dont really percieve my own bikes (1975 through to 1985) as vintage, but I look at BSA's, Cheney's and bikes like those to be 'vintage'. The decade ('75 through '85) doesnt look vintage to me but that is just my personal thoughts.
I state decades in here because is seems a natural cut off point to distinquish the changes of the look of the bikes and what people perceive as vintage verses evolution.