OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: DR on July 14, 2010, 02:21:32 pm
-
This is a thank you to Ray/Evie from Emerald.
I've often turned away chances of riding new or late model bikes simply for the fear that once I did I'd find it hard to go back and enjoy riding the older ones. After a great weekend away riding a 2010 RM450-Z and late model KX250F at a track in Central QLD courtesy of Ray and Evie Sullivan my instincts have been proven correct.
I'm now casting my wind burnt fleet culling eyes over the collection and doing the sums required to arrange funding of a modern for my very own asap 8) Believe it or not, as much as I loved the RMZ it was the little 250 Kawa that clicked with me instantly allowing me to to ride harder and enjoy myself like I never thought possible. I can't speak highly enough of the green meanie. Only sore part I had from the ride was my arse due to the gripper seat covers :o normally my arms and legs would be shot for a few days after the fact but this time was entirely different 8)
Do I now hold moderns in a new light?..you bet I do! Thanks for the weekend and the education Ray, just I needed to get my head out of the sand. These newer models are absolute weapons and worth hoping on any chance you get to ride one ;)
-
Yeh Doc.
I was riding my late model 300 KTM as the sweep at a vinduro on the week-end.
It was like chalk and cheese going from the modern to the Vintage and from the Vintage to the modern all week-end.
-
. As much as I love old bikes, they certainly have their limitations. I had a similar experience to Docs the last time I went down to the farm with the mates. Because of my dodgy ankle and knee I have some trouble starting the old big bores so I commandeered my mates button start 09 510 Husky and instantly fell in love with it.....it's so much better than my old 00 Kato 400 and light years better than the Yammy IT465 and Maico 490 I rode later that weekend. That little fire trail excursion really rubbed it into me how much I was missing not having a modern bike. As soon as I've got my injuries sorted and pissed off another 20kg I'll start looking for a nice button start enduro bike. I like the idea of the electric start KTM 250/300 2 strokes.
Hey Doc....Has Ray sorted the Cheney TM400 after its "problems" a little while ago?
-
I must ask Ray for pics of his cheney tm400 I am buying a 71 tm400 from him thanks Michael. ;)
-
Indeed yes, the modern bikes are pretty damned impressive, and way better to ride than the vintage bikes. The best of both worlds is to own both, isn't it? I enjoy riding my 05 YZ125, but equally I love getting out on my 75 RM125. The difference is astounding but the enjoyment is similar (actually I get more fun out of the 75 to be honest). It just requires a different mind-set for each. I find it more personally satisfying riding the '75 - my speed on the '75 is closer to that of the other racers on the similar era bikes. As we go later, the gap becomes more obvious! Riding the '05 leaves me floundering way at the back of the field...
Still, I took the YZ out on Sunday to a practice day at the local track. Cold and wet and very slushy, but I had a ball. I'd hate to have ridden the RM in those conditions.
-
Yes Doc they are and can be great fun. I ride a Honda CRF450X and the best thing is the electric leg!
Great bike to ride and is way more bike than I need. It will climb anything with great torque and ease of use. Funny though it steers just like my pre 85 bike so has something in common.
But one thing is true they are great to ride but are left behind in looks and style of the 60/70 bikes.
Shane
-
Ah you are speaking the unspeakable truth!
We love old bikes, not because they were or are good (they're not) but because of the people they attract and the memories they evoke.
-
Bought my daughter a new CRF250X and stripped it of all ancillaries except the button start (She's a short arse like her dad) and she raced that and I occassionaly raced it in the Vets but was still very committed to VMX. Then a combination of injuries and a promise to the son to concentrate on his racing and a ride on his YZ125 05 at a clubby has changed my tune a bit. One long time member mate observed that he reckoned he hadn't seen me enjoy myself that much in ages. I must admit, it was good.
I was locking up the rear and sliding into corners then dumping the clutch to shoot out again. (In my head anyway) I liked it far more than the 4 stroke. This made it hard to get back on the old bikes I can tell you.
Mybe Ravenswood will get my head straight again?
Viper666
-
Firko, Ray's Cheney is looking mighty fine. Actually I think the hold up was me with some zinc plating of bits but it's so so close to being finished and it's looking better than ever 8) Frosty I'm sure there's some pics on the way in the not too distant future ;)
As for the looks of the new bikes, I'm baited, hook, line, sinker, the lot! I liked everything about them even the way they look especially when it's all so functional, just choose your color 8)
-
Ok check the two links at the bottom of my signature. :o
Then explain what you have just seen.
The hill the first guy is riding up is the same hill as the second.
I go on those trail rides and the new bikes seem to have an aversion to going upwards.
-
I click with the RMZ450 thats for sure, but they are a rapidly depreciating consumable resource, where recycling old MXers has a sense of value about it that moderns don't have.
I think Graeme was right with the state of mind thing, plus i like the option of blaming the bike, which is a bit harder if someone just won a USGP on almost the same bike.
-
Yeah, its a funny one.
I originally got interested in old bikes because they were all I could afford at the time.
Since I began racing VMX, I reckon I've spent as much on old bikes as I would have on buying a new two-stroke, racing it regularly and replacing it every year...
But I definitely don't regret the money I've spent, and the old bikes still float my boat for a number of reasons:
I love taking a "worthless pile of junk" and making it into something can be enjoyed;
I love rebuilding/preserving things that would otherwise be thrown away;
I love being able to ride something vaguely near its limit (unlike a decent modern, where I ride around at one-third throttle);
I love community that comes with old bikes - people are keen to help each other out and I am yet to meet a genuine dickhead through old bikes;
I love knowing that the old bikes aren't depreciating if they sit in the shed and are ignored for months at a time (even though I'm not into the "this here classic is appreciating by the day" way of thinking);
I love the lack of egos and bullsh at old bike events (at least compared to modern events);
I love discovering the old bikes that work beautifully as a bike, (even when they don't do anything particularly well by modern standards);
AFAIK, there's no modern equivilant to CD or HBBB.
None of this is meant to perpetuate the "Maico 490 [or whatever] was the best bike ever built" line - if they were that good, they wouldn't have stopped making them... New bikes do their thing very well, there's no doubt about it.
I've got an '00 model that eats my similar '94 model bike, which eats my similar '89 model - even for a gumby like me, the engineers have earned their pay since everything began to fit the same mould in the late 1980s.
-
Mike 52. Would there be a little rider ability coming out there? Or are the newies just too tall for the old paddle. They should out handle there way up with plently speed, deflecting off the rocks and roots. The old Husky did it oh so easy.
Still love the old bikes. They were/are fat and slow by todays standards but all is made up for with the nostalga and atmoshpere at the classic bike rides. Every year for decades they have been at the least slighly improved on the previous model, (Even if it was just prettier stickers). And there have been sooo many major advances.
How many 2010 Suzukis were overtaken at CD6 and CD7 by much older and smaller cced classic bikes?
Bike ability 10% rider ability 75%. 5% good luck.
Retro
-
TFT - spot on - it's the whole package that comes with VMX. Have been to a couple of modern meets and it just isn't the same for us old farts - do you really see a forum like this for moderns. It's more than the bikes.
-
The modern 4 stroke does absolutley nothing for me and iv'e been lucky enough to ride a few. However at a push i would ride (race ) a modern 2 stroke but preferably with the blokes i ride old bikes with.
These days its not the bikes i dont like its the kids in the sport i generally dont like.
This might do it for somone ;D
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=300834308
-
uh,Retro, where'd the other 10% go? :-\
-
I love the lack of egos and bullsh at old bike events (at least compared to modern events);
Geez. These modern events must be really bad these days...... :o
-
Thats for the fast guys to know and the rest of us to ponder! The 10 secret herbs and spices percentage thingos!
-
Mike 52. Would there be a little rider ability coming out there? Or are the newies just too tall for the old paddle. They should out handle there way up with plently speed, deflecting off the rocks and roots. The old Husky did it oh so easy.
Still love the old bikes. They were/are fat and slow by todays standards but all is made up for with the nostalga and atmoshpere at the classic bike rides. Every year for decades they have been at the least slighly improved on the previous model, (Even if it was just prettier stickers). And there have been sooo many major advances.
How many 2010 Suzukis were overtaken at CD6 and CD7 by much older and smaller cced classic bikes?
Bike ability 10% rider ability 75%. 5% good luck.
Retro
I agree about the ability but those new bikes make it all so easy. Electric start and all. I,ve been stuck behind some of these guys on my 86 250 exc and had to wait for them to get out of the road so I could kickstart my 860mm seat height left hand kick KTM and ride around them. :o
Yes the suzi,s were quick at CD7 but the kid on the XR80 wasn,t too shabby either. :) Husky guy makes it look easy don,t he ? :)
-
The modern 4 stroke does absolutley nothing for me and iv'e been lucky enough to ride a few. However at a push i would ride (race ) a modern 2 stroke but preferably with the blokes i ride old bikes with.
These days its not the bikes i dont like its the kids in the sport i generally dont like.
This might do it for somone ;D
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=300834308
I was at a Enduro round at Goomburra a couple of weeks ago and talked to an older rider. He was good . Told me about the over 45,s class.
I asked him about the over 55,s and got a laugh.
Every one else seemed to be preoccupied.
Anyone remember the old days and the windups , pissups and general outrageous fun. [Talking enduro,s here] :)
We used to race with a hangover. Some people [ no names] raced stoned. Tough guys them. :o
-
Doc,
We have the best of both worlds down here in VICTORIA with the VIPER series. To support the hosting club in both $ and looking after their members, VIPER allows a Modern "OPEN" class on the day. I race my 1984 RM125 in the Pre85 125/250 class then jump on the late model RM125 and have a crack in the modern class. Gotta have the brain switched on as the styles of riding are just a little different. :D
Bahnsy
-
just I needed to get my head out of the sand. These newer models are absolute weapons and worth hoping on any chance you get to ride one ;)
Great weekend Doc..good for you. 8)
Vintage Nationals Conondale 09 & Classic Dirt 7 Conondale these two event we were definitely outside our box and head out of the sand events. :o Pre85's are a whole new world. :o
Steven had the test ride on the 2010 SUZUKI 450 at CD7 and couldn't fault it.Though can't justify the price and no compliance plate available.
He very rarely rides boy child's 06-08 models due to the fact that they are too fast and basically scare the shit out of ya.(our secret) ;)
We really are lucky to be able to see/ride all of the different era's,and yes !its the people that make vmx/mx that does it for us ;D
cheers A
-
I'm not comparing vmx to modern MX nor the people involved nor attitudes in general. I'm not a racer or club type person and trail riding with mates is my preferred discipline. I am however giving a half serious ride impression from someone who's never ridden a modern 4 stroke before. As I stated, I found nothing at all to compare. The new bikes are simply stunning in all departments. Bill, I think the 2 biggest things that stick in my mind are the instantaneous power delivery and the way you can push the front end into corners and they stick like shat to a blanket. Along with the brilliant brakes and plush suspension when added together it equates to pinpoint accuracy which in turn inspires confidence allowing me to ride much more safely, smoother and faster than I ever thought possible. I can't argue with that because 'for me' it's fact. Love them or hate them I certainly don't expect moderns to float everyone's boat but as expected they are a far cry from the mx bikes of old and something I now desperately desire ;)
Rod, I soon found out about the differing riding styles ;) It didn't take long to get used to it which surprised me a lot but I'd been watching a lot of the AMA series and moderns lately and even viewing a few Everts training vids in the lead up so I had a vague idea of what's required beforehand ;) Basically this was, loosen up, elbows out, get over the front, crank it and hang on. The rest seemed to come naturally after a few heart starters that told me I was doing the wrong things ;D
Alison, the track was super fast and super sandy in most places but not once did this cause an issue ( I lie, just once the front turned in when I didn't want it to :P)..I still can't believe the handling. As for the price well it depends on perspective I guess. Was told tonight the new KX250's are under 9 grand. To me that sounds pretty reasonable considering what you get..and it's brand new ;D
-
The new bikes are great. You can just charge into everything without even thinking about it. After riding an old bike, you wonder what magazine testers find to whinge about. The standard we get on modern bikes is so high, that any problems are often no more than niggles.
Riding them (and more specifically, racing them) does make you quicker on an old bike. But like a lot of people have found, riding them both on the same day is risky. I've cracked frames, smashed hubs, even blown a shock to pieces trying to jump something I shouldn't have..
-
I too only have a vmx bike (iz465) and i have on the occasion ridden with mates (on modern bikes) in the forests and I just got used to the bone jarring ride and bad brakes but i more or less keep up the pace ( not lately though) . Then i rode my sons kx250f around a 5km loop in the forest and couldnt believe the ease at which i could maintain speed and accuracy. I also could not fault the power and on the occasion found the thing wanting to stand vertically with the power on. I am truely amazed at the power delivery of this thing compare to my 2 stoke 465. mmm we have come a long way. I will be getting a modern bike for sure as soon as i get the money. BUT BUT after a days riding after the bikes are clean and side by side in the garage I just keep drooling over the yellow IZ465 NOT the KX , there is still something about the raw beauty of the older 2 strokes....
-
Hey Doc,
Can't argue with your perspective on this suddenly thorny question.
But… before you plonk down your hard earned on a new 4-stroke, do yourself a favour and have a ride [beg borrow or steal] on a modern 2-stroke.
I've had a quick jaunt on both the YZ144 and YZ250 and they are a total hoot. So much so that I am considering getting one to put away so I can ride it in VMX events in 2030. I know that like me, you love the 125,s, well the 144 is even more fun. Great modern suspension and brakes - superlight and a terrific engine. When you really get into it, the 250 can be too much of a good thing, but the 144 is almost perfect. Almost as good as the KTM200.
Don't rush into the 4-stroke thing until you have tried the cheaper alternative. You can still do all your own maintenance, the only new thing to learn is powervalve servicing [and that isn't really difficult].
As Lozza says - a 2 stroke is a thing of true beauty.
VMX42
-
Gotta agree with Jeff.
I reckon a modern 2 stroke is every bit as much of a hoot as the new 4 strokes. Maybe the 4ST is easier to ride fast (read: makes an ordinary rider like me look a bit less ordinary) but if your not seriously racing then the 2ST is the way to go imho. If only for the ease of maintenance.
Cheers
Shaun
-
I sold my 4 banger and gone back to the YZ 2 smoker, like riding an armchair. BUT dont forget you cant home fix this shit like you can with the old girls, petrol and spark is all that is required.
-
what's the latest 2St Enduro bikes - haven't looked much but wasn't the KTM 300 a 2 smoker - thought that might be a bit of a weapon?
-
I'm not so sure about not being able to do home servicing or repairs Freaky. I know for a fact the KTM's require special tools for disassembly and this was a real turn off but I had a good look through the genuine KX workshop manual and there's little in there that requires any special rocket science knowledge. Fortunately Ray is a bike mechanic, adjustment/replacing the valve shims was discussed and the routine shown to me is piss simple. Nothing special about the engines internally but obviously regular servicing plays a critical role when such close tolerances are involved.
I will have a ride on a 2 smoker Jeff but to be honest, I fell in love with the linear power curve of the 4 stroke and the way they hook up when short shifted. It didn't seem to matter what gear I was in or how slow/fast I was going, it's just a case of twist the throttle and it's there..instantly! ;D
Tony, the KX stood up on me a few times after giving it a good serve coming out of corners, the RM450 on the other hand simply dug huge trenches, moved a tonne of soil and was not as easy to ride fast..simply too much power for this little black duck I'm afraid :o fire trails and open areas the 450 would easily rule but around a closed course with plenty of tight corners or simply out for a day of trail riding the 250 is a much easier thing to live with and doesn't sap any energy compared to riding the big bore. The 450 had my arms pumped and me gasping for air before I'd even finish 2 laps. It took about 5 laps on the 250 before things started to get a little sloppy ( I only ride 3 or 4 times a year so fitness is not exactly my forte) ;)
How the younger guys race these things for 40minutes + 2 laps per race is totally beyond my comprehension!
-
Doc,
Sounds like you need a KTM 250/300 2t.
Cheap and reliable, with the added advantage of power delivery tunability through the ignition and power valve spring.
You want a bike thats a homicidal maniac you got one, you want a bike that your granny can ride you can have that too, with the flick of a switch and 30 sec on an allen key.
They are shit hot.
-
regular servicing plays a critical role .
So very true with all bikes.Trust me I sign the cheques ;D
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=11702.0
-
How the younger guys race these things for 40minutes + 2 laps per race is totally beyond my comprehension!
They don't. We haven't had 40 minute motos for years. Even GPs and AMA Nationals aren't that long. Pussies!! ;)
-
Doc,
Sounds like you need a KTM 250/300 2t.
Cheap and reliable, with the added advantage of power delivery tunability through the ignition and power valve spring.
You want a bike thats a homicidal maniac you got one, you want a bike that your granny can ride you can have that too, with the flick of a switch and 30 sec on an allen key.
They are shit hot.
I agree there Evo, mines a 05' 300exc your on the money mate !
-
They don't. We haven't had 40 minute motos for years. Even GPs and AMA Nationals aren't that long. Pussies!!
Actually Jeff I was slightly off mark sorry :P the recent AMA MX World Championship motocross races I've been watching of late are 35 minute + 2 laps which still equates to about 40 minutes per heat. The regular AMA Nationals run 30 minutes + 2 laps. Give or take a few minutes it's still a huge ask at the pace the top guys maintain ;)
Will hopefully have a shot on the new 2 stokers later in the year when I head back out west for another ride (again courtesy of Sully) Lots to think about between now and then but I can say it will take a lot to sway me away from the new KX250's. Even though they are all probably much of a muchness I just can't get over how well the Kawa suited me, I felt more at home on that than I have with any bike I've ever ridden including vintage (hurts to say that but eh..it's truth ::)) :)
-
I love vintage motocross, love spending hours looking at photos and reading these forums. But when i go riding, i am on a new KX450F.
-
I'll put in my 2 bobs worth.After owning my 06 WR450F for a year and a half,it basically turned me off riding.
I ride at Rokeby and Bluerock which are full of tight single tracks and very hilly terrain.
I am a novice type rider but the height and the way the 450 carried the weight high really pissed me off.
Doing a u turn on a very tight single track and trying to get a leg down to support myself and once the WR got to a certain angle it felt like all of it's 120 odd kgs would want to fall on you.
The sit-on-top feel of the brick seats felt weird after being used to sit-in types and being up in the clouds.
The front end had a mind of its own and spat me off a few times adding to the hate of riding.
Chopping the throttle on the 4 bangers really stuffed up my corner entries which added to my steering woes.
Then trying to pick up a lump of steel on the side of a hill when you're knackered doesn't help when i'm 5'7ish and 72kg.
After putting together the 85 RM/PE175 and riding it...these 2 bikes were like chalk and cheese.
My mates don't believe me when i say the RM rides,handles,turns, BETTER than the WR and is an absolute blast to ride fast,trying to make it do things that i couldn't do on the WR.
The best thing is the weight and how loooow it is carried.Laying on the ground i can pick it one handed at the grip,no top heaviness....nuttin'!
Don't get me wrong,the WR450F is a great bike.....for a taller and stronger bloke.
It just didn't suit me and i made excuses to not go riding. I can't get enough of the RM because it is a hoot to ride and is so light which is why i like it.
If i were to get another modern i would like to try out the KTM300
-
Doc,
Sounds like you need a KTM 250/300 2t.
Cheap and reliable, with the added advantage of power delivery tunability through the ignition and power valve spring.
You want a bike thats a homicidal maniac you got one, you want a bike that your granny can ride you can have that too, with the flick of a switch and 30 sec on an allen key.
They are shit hot.
I agree there Evo, mines a 05' 300exc your on the money mate !
Hoony I have just torn my top pocket (I have no son!)
-
I ride both modern and old bikes recreationally and the thing that strikes it home for me is how did guys manage to ride motocross so fast on those old things back in the day, they are just so much harder to ride.
I bought my first (and possibly my last) 4 stroke modern this year. It's an RMZ450 and is a simply fantastic bike to ride, but the two things that will put me off the 4 strokes and point me back to 2 strokes are:
- the heat that these things generate is crazy. basically you need to keep moving whilst it's running or it'll start to boil the coolant where the old 2 banger could sit there and idle happily and not overheat.
- the oil change intervals at 6 hours (for my bike anyway). because these things are so highly strung to get power out of them with light weight components and close tolerances the oil breaks down very quickly from both heat and also fuel contamination (blow by). the servicing is already similar intervals to a 2s for major components like pistons/rings and now valve clearances and valve springs, but top quality synthetic oils cost between $25-30 a litre and then a genuine oil filter is $18 means a servicing materials alone will cost around $50 every 6 hours which is ridiculous. keep an eye open for cheaper non-genuine filters on ebay, but the oil cost is still there.
other than that though, they're awesome. i can truly appreciate now why no-one could ever be competitive on 2 stroke machinery against these modern 4 strokes. it's just as a recreational ride bike it's hard to justify the expense.
-
I can truly appreciate now why no-one could ever be competitive on 2 stroke machinery against these modern 4 strokes. it's just as a recreational ride bike it's hard to justify the expense.
That might have something to do with the 80 to 100% capacity advantage over the 2 strokes. :D
-
I recognize that the new bikes are better , with 30 years of development they should be, but on trail rides they don,t seem to out perform the old stuff. Chuck in a few hills , bit of deep mud , deep dust and you seem to have a problem. ;)
From what I,ve seen they are not fun at all. :o
I am not including mx in this observation. :)
-
Will hopefully have a shot on the new 2 stokers later in the year when I head back out west for another ride (again courtesy of Sully) Lots to think about between now and then but I can say it will take a lot to sway me away from the new KX250's. Even though they are all probably much of a muchness I just can't get over how well the Kawa suited me, I felt more at home on that than I have with any bike I've ever ridden including vintage (hurts to say that but eh..it's truth ::)) :)
[/quote]
Good on yer Doc :) I apologise my previous post was all the usual anti modern i hate young people venom ::) and thats not what this threads about.
Its great that you got the oppertunity to go ride these modern bikes and even better that you enjoyed them so much :)
I agree that the 250F is a lot more fun than the 450s , and as you say they are a lot more predictable and forgiving than our vintage rides :D
You have done your apprentiship on two stokes and i believe that actually makes you enjoy the modern 4 stroke all the more. I think anyone who is serious about racing MX needs to learn to go fast on a 2 stroke first.
I might take off the Blinkers ::) this weekend and leave the RMX in the shed and take the 250F on a trail ride and see if my opinion changes when riding them with an open mind :D
Doc we know your hearts in Vintage but its great that you have found another avenue of fun on two wheels.
-
Will hopefully have a shot on the new 2 stokers later in the year when I head back out west for another ride (again courtesy of Sully) Lots to think about
Good on yer Doc :) I apologise my previous post was all the usual anti modern i hate young people venom ::) and thats not what this threads about.
Its great that you got the oppertunity to go ride these modern bikes and even better that you enjoyed them so much :)
I agree that the 250F is a lot more fun than the 450s , and as you say they are a lot more predictable and forgiving than our vintage rides :D
You have done your apprentiship on two stokes and i believe that actually makes you enjoy the modern 4 stroke all the more. I think anyone who is serious about racing MX needs to learn to go fast on a 2 stroke first.
I might take off the Blinkers ::) this weekend and leave the RMX in the shed and take the 250F on a trail ride and see if my opinion changes when riding them with an open mind :D
Doc we know your hearts in Vintage but its great that you have found another avenue of fun on two wheels.
Come on Bill 'man up' and tell us what you really think. It looks like you are going soft in your old age… ;D
-
It looks like you are going soft in your old age…
I know I am Jeff! :D seriously though, at vintage events it's all vintage naturally but I have to ask myself the question of why beat myself to a pulp play racing and trail riding when I don't have to? I only ride for the fun. That little Kwak put the same silly smile on my face as the RM400 did when I first purchased it as a fifteen year old back in 1978 ;D Same deal now, these things are head and shoulders above anything I've previously ridden/owned and it encourages me to be a little more advantageous. I would have been really baulked to ride this track at speed on any of my bikes as the whoops would swallow a poor little TM and the big RM would never have been as predictable to ride as fast in the sandy conditions. Kind of opened up a 25 lull that I'd been experiencing. It took me back to the old mindset of wanting to jump jumps and not being afraid to hit berms with some gusto rather than worrying about what I might break or what might break me :o The toll on the body at the end of the day is a big factor more-so now then ever before :-\ When I look back, I've spent a heck of a lot more than 9k on vintage bikes and bits in the last decade, I don't ride every weekend..maybe every 23rd weekend ::) so I imagine a new bike now would most likely see out my riding days. I made the RM400 last me 20+ years before I started for other toys and I feel sure the old darlings wouldn't mind sharing the garage with a modern..even if it is green. Sounds like I've already sold myself eh :D
Bill, no worries mate ;) up till last weekend I had no time or desire to have anything remotely modern :D The real reason for the topic was 2fold..to thank Ray for sure but also more to the point, I was shattered though most definately a good shattering or I wouldn't be talking the silly talk like I am now :)
-
I can truly appreciate now why no-one could ever be competitive on 2 stroke machinery against these modern 4 strokes. it's just as a recreational ride bike it's hard to justify the expense.
That might have something to do with the 80 to 100% capacity advantage over the 2 strokes. :D
Bang on vmx42, the ONLY reason that modern 4 strokes are competitive is that they are allowed to compete against 2 strokes half their capacity. Imaging if a crf 150 had to line up against a ktm 150, or a yzf 250 had to line up against a yz 250 or a kxf 450 had to line up against a kx 500. No contest.
-
Evo things have changed since 4 strokes became competitive because of the extra cc's.
You are now alowed to race a 250 2stroke in the 250 class at the MX Nationals and only 3 guys have bothered. All the others chose 4 strokes.
I reckon if 500 2strokes were allowed the boys would still race a 450 4 stroke, the 450's are way fast enough and easier to ride and much more tractable than a big 500 2 stroke.
-
The reason the riders at the nationals ride 4 strokes in the lites class is firstly that most of them have no experience on a 250 2t as they are too young to have ever experienced a 2 stroke, or secondly they are paid by the factories to ride/promote their all conquering fourstrokes. ???
Get one of the top 5 lites riders on a 250 2 stroke for 12 months and it would be a different story.
The factories would never let it happen because it might open the eyes of the buying public to the B.S. they have been feeding everyone as to how good these bikes are. >:(
As you can probably gauge, I'm not a big fan of modern 4 t's.
-
The riders on the 250 2 strokes are Darryl King, Cameron Taylor and Kim Ashkenazi.. are you saying none of them are capable of cracking the top 5? To be honest King and Taylor had better results on 4 strokes last year, like it or not the 250 4 strokes are seriously fast and the 2 strokes are getting dated with lack of development.
All the fast young 250f riders grew up on 65 and 85 2 strokes so you can be sure they know how to ride a 2 stroke.
The modern 4 strokes are very good , that's why everyone races one.
Working in a race team i've seen plenty of juniors go up to the senior ranks on a 125 2 stroke and get flogged and then have to shell out for a 250F to be fully competitive.
-
as much as i too don't get a horn from modern 4 strokes i must admit they are faster cornering and exit speed out of corners is way faster than a 2 stroke. i agree with your Johnny that the 2 stroke is a bit low on tech now.
its just that us old school blokes have a passion for that 2 stroke era because its Our era!
-
I was interested to read a comparo recently (and there have been others) where a 250 2-stroke was compared to a 250 4-stroke around an MX track. The lap times ended up about even. I think on the whole, the 4T has the advantage nowadays. Sure on some tracks the 2-strokes may be better (read more open, faster), but by and large the 4 stroke now is a far easier ride as well as being more than competitive.
-
If you were to compare a 50hp 4T with a 50hp 2T, the two-stroke will typically be lighter, last longer, have a broader power curve, and still be slower around a motocross track.
This is because the four stroke is better at finding traction, particularly in very dry or very wet conditions.
RV being the fastest rider at the 08(?) MXdN on the KXF250 sounds great, but when you hear of the replacement schedule for the motors (between races!), its pretty sobering.
For the majority of us, the two-stroke is a better thing to own - but there's gotta be a point (in terms of rider skill/ambition) where the extra speed of the 4-stroke makes it impossible to ignore.
-
Well all a 250 2T rider need do is find what makes traction. Plus 4T bikes 'park' badly mid corner and spoil any corner speed a 2T rider can carry. I have yet to see any serious developement (though this is changing as we speak) over and above the "bung a pipe on and port the shit out of it" thinking.In road racing 250F's(later given 300cc) did not even go close to laying a glove on 5yr old 125's so they are NOT that great.
I'd have a new TM 300 or a 6sp KTM 300 in a flash.
-
My cousin has a wr450f and can ride the only thing it had on my pe400 was the better suspension and brakes I could pull right away out of corners so I don't think traction makes a huge deal of difference over straight out acceleration.
Surely in the lower capacity's the 80cc water cooled have got so much more grunt than a 150f and the 125 is the same they don't want the two competiting side by side as the two strokers will always win, not the oh a 125 two is equivelant to a 250 four no it isn't the piston in the 250 is twice the capacity who came up with that half being equivelant?
-
The riders on the 250 2 strokes are Darryl King, Cameron Taylor and Kim Ashkenazi.. are you saying none of them are capable of cracking the top 5? To be honest King and Taylor had better results on 4 strokes last year, like it or not the 250 4 strokes are seriously fast and the 2 strokes are getting dated with lack of development.
All the fast young 250f riders grew up on 65 and 85 2 strokes so you can be sure they know how to ride a 2 stroke.
The modern 4 strokes are very good , that's why everyone races one.
Working in a race team i've seen plenty of juniors go up to the senior ranks on a 125 2 stroke and get flogged and then have to shell out for a 250F to be fully competitive.
No, in 2010 they are not, with no disrespect to them, but the kids are way too fast.
I'm not saying the new fourstrokes are bad, just not as good as everyone makes out, if they where then there would be capacity parity in all classes. Instead of the distinct 2 stroke DISADVANTAGE as it stands now. How many crf 150's would flood the market if MA introduced a 150 class where they had too line up against KTM and YZ 150's. The Honda's would be dropped like hot cakes.
and KTM and Yamaha would sell out in a week.
I would love too see KTM produce a 350 2t (with as much devolopement money thrown at it as the 350 4 t ) that could go toe to toe with their new 350. It would do everything as good as the 4 stroke...........for half the cost.
-
My cousin has a wr450f and can ride the only thing it had on my pe400 was the better suspension and brakes I could pull right away out of corners so I don't think traction makes a huge deal of difference over straight out acceleration.
The big-bore 2-strokes partially even out the advantage - they make good power down low in the rev range and are consequently more like a 4-stroke at finding traction.
Surely in the lower capacity's the 80cc water cooled have got so much more grunt than a 150f and the 125 is the same they don't want the two competiting side by side as the two strokers will always win, not the oh a 125 two is equivelant to a 250 four no it isn't the piston in the 250 is twice the capacity who came up with that half being equivelant?
Yes. A YZF400 was a fairly close match for a YZ250 of the same age. So then they changed the class to allow 450cc 4-strokes and called it parity?!
And then they put 250cc 4-strokes in with 125cc 2-strokes and that made sense?
-
Doc ,,you'll have to do it all again and invite us lot, to discuss it over the evening camp fire and a few cold refreshments. ;D 8)
cheers me
-
I not long ago brought a current model CRF 450 X,,,,it has not made me a better rider,,,but shit is it nice to have Brakes that work perfect, suspension that is so forgiving, nice smooth power and plenty of it ;D, and that button how nice is that when your stuck on a shitty big arse hill, I own 4 pre 85 bike's and LOVE riding them and will as long as I can, but I really enjoy riding this mod bike, did I tell you about the power it has :o ;D
-
Society has all been conned to a certain extent. It was partly sold under pollution, those horid, dirty, smokey, noisy, evil 2 strokes. But if you look at the big picture, a 2 stroke will use a third of the parts each service interval. That means for every box of 2t parts to a bike shop for a week, there would be 3 for 4t. Go up the line to the warehouses, 3 instead of 1 truck, and further up the line 3, container ships instead of 1, chuffing out huge ammounts carbon emissions for the poor old ozone layer. And all the extra packaging and emmissions from the extra manufacturing.
As an unfortunate side affect for the poor old bike manufacturers, they have to make more money from all these extra parts and bikes sold due to the short life span of the bikes. And the poor of government also makes an extra packet out of all the extra sales. That would be about $300 of that $3,000 rebuild, as opposed to the $100 or so from the same 2t rebuild. The government realy makes a lot more than that. Everyone forgets about the porton of tax along the way that goes back from the workers wages, taxes on the fuels used by the transport companies, etc. The prices of everything is pushed up by taxes. At every step of the way from the obtaining of the raw material, to the sold product there are taxes upon taxes.
Everyone wanted 2 strokes only, just a decade ago. We covet what we see our idols winning races on. It is very good business sense for the manufacturers to push and sell 4ts. There will be little or no more development on 2ts as there is not the money there. It comes that many will not be able to afford to own a dirt bike and we will probably see more posts of "Another Sydney bike shop closes".
Sorry about my conspiracy theory rant. Do you want to hear the one about the government and aliens?
Retro
-
Society has all been conned to a certain extent. It was partly sold under pollution, those horid, dirty, smokey, noisy, evil 2 strokes. But if you look at the big picture, a 2 stroke will use a third of the parts each service interval. That means for every box of 2t parts to a bike shop for a week, there would be 3 for 4t. Go up the line to the warehouses, 3 instead of 1 truck, and further up the line 3, container ships instead of 1, chuffing out huge ammounts carbon emissions for the poor old ozone layer. And all the extra packaging and emmissions from the extra manufacturing.
As an unfortunate side affect for the poor old bike manufacturers, they have to make more money from all these extra parts and bikes sold due to the short life span of the bikes. And the poor of government also makes an extra packet out of all the extra sales. That would be about $300 of that $3,000 rebuild, as opposed to the $100 or so from the same 2t rebuild. The government realy makes a lot more than that. Everyone forgets about the porton of tax along the way that goes back from the workers wages, taxes on the fuels used by the transport companies, etc. The prices of everything is pushed up by taxes. At every step of the way from the obtaining of the raw material, to the sold product there are taxes upon taxes.
Everyone wanted 2 strokes only, just a decade ago. We covet what we see our idols winning races on. It is very good business sense for the manufacturers to push and sell 4ts. There will be little or no more development on 2ts as there is not the money there. It comes that many will not be able to afford to own a dirt bike and we will probably see more posts of "Another Sydney bike shop closes".
Sorry about my conspiracy theory rant. Do you want to hear the one about the government and aliens?
Retro
Very well written
Agree 100% :)
-
The riders on the 250 2 strokes are Darryl King, Cameron Taylor and Kim Ashkenazi.. are you saying none of them are capable of cracking the top 5? To be honest King and Taylor had better results on 4 strokes last year, like it or not the 250 4 strokes are seriously fast and the 2 strokes are getting dated with lack of development.
All the fast young 250f riders grew up on 65 and 85 2 strokes so you can be sure they know how to ride a 2 stroke.
The modern 4 strokes are very good , that's why everyone races one.
Working in a race team i've seen plenty of juniors go up to the senior ranks on a 125 2 stroke and get flogged and then have to shell out for a 250F to be fully competitive.
Which of these guys is still in his twenties?
Darryl King is pushing 40 & any young punk beaten by him should hang his head in shame & never go near a mx track again. Good reason for him to keep riding, thin out the ranks a bit ;D
-
It looks as though 4 strokes are here to stay with Moto GP, Moto 2, MXGP, AMA Motocross all being taken over by 4 strokes.
There is a huge amount of technical knowledge and development going into 4 strokes and virtually none going into the 2 stroke, maybe that will change in the future.
The way it is now for motocross a 4 stroke is the better bike off the showroom floor.
It's a shame the Jap manufacturers don't continue to make and develop new 2 strokes for the average guy who wants a new bike he can maintain and rebuild himself without huge repair bills and with some of the Motocross classes now allowing equal capacity for 2 and 4 strokes it would make it more interesting to see a mix of both competing like it was 5 -10 years back.
-
The riders on the 250 2 strokes are Darryl King, Cameron Taylor and Kim Ashkenazi.. are you saying none of them are capable of cracking the top 5? To be honest King and Taylor had better results on 4 strokes last year, like it or not the 250 4 strokes are seriously fast and the 2 strokes are getting dated with lack of development.
All the fast young 250f riders grew up on 65 and 85 2 strokes so you can be sure they know how to ride a 2 stroke.
The modern 4 strokes are very good , that's why everyone races one.
Working in a race team i've seen plenty of juniors go up to the senior ranks on a 125 2 stroke and get flogged and then have to shell out for a 250F to be fully competitive.
Which of these guys is still in his twenties?
Darryl King is pushing 40 & any young punk beaten by him should hang his head in shame & never go near a mx track again. Good reason for him to keep riding, thin out the ranks a bit ;D
None of those 3 are young anymore but still very fast.
Darryl finished 2nd in the world a couple of times so it's no embarrasment to be beaten by him.
It's great that all 3 are still competitive with the young guys.
-
don't be fooled, the cc's mean nothing i reckon. ride a 500cc 2 stroke and then ride a current generation 450cc 4 stroke back to back on the same track, the superior power delivery and predictability of the 4 stroke through and out of the corners is mind blowing. that's why the 2s is uncompetitive. even the world mx riders picked this up in open class in the 90's, a 500 2s was ok when you had good traction and the 4s was superior anywhere else. as for a drag race however, a well set up 500 is top of the heap in my opinion, it's just when you go round a corner and the thing wants to chuck ya over the tank that things have to slow down a bit when you're a rider of my limited abilities. i reckon the environmental/emmissions issue is a load of krap too by the time you change the oil and filter every 6 hours.
-
Like Tim the tool man Taylor says "Its not really yours unless you built it yourself"
-
Like Tim the tool man Taylor says "Its not really yours unless you built it yourself"
;D ;D ;D At last, my philosophy on this old bike thing in a nutshell. Perfect!