OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => British (BSA, Greeves, Triumph etc) => Topic started by: big mac on May 12, 2010, 09:42:04 pm
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Have rebuilt a b44 victor gp motor new bearings, big end, con-rod, pioston, rebore, valves ground & reseated, new liner to replace stuffed chrome bore but it still smokes real bad not just a little enough to bring next door running with a hose.
Have pulled the motor down 3 times checked ring gap, gaskets, ran motor with the rocker feed off to check the oil was not get in from the rocker box.
So please help what have I missed. Thanks Rory
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Hey hey, I had this problem too! Would not fricken stop smoking! I will tell you what it was. These BSA’s have a crappy ball valve set up at the bottom of the case under the sump plate. After 40 years of use these are no longer as they were when brand new, which means the engines will always wet sump. That means the oil runs out of the tank and into the crank case and you will have excess oil in the motor. You really should drain the cases before starting, depending on how badly it has wet sumped, but if you do start it, the excess oil in the motor will cause the bore/rings to glaze up. Once that happens your new piston/bore/rings will not bed in no matter what you do. This happened on the one I built. After numerous attempts at cleaning the ball valve the wet sumping would not stop and the smoking continuned. No option left but to strip the motor. Once I had done that, sure enough the bore was really glazed up. So I removed the glazing. Then the ball valve under the sump plate really needed a decent look at. It not easily serviceable. There is a tiny pin that needs to be knocked out. This was hard to get out. Then the ball could come out. I cant remember exactly but I think there could have been a metal seat or the part that the ball was in could be removed?? Any way the ball had slit pits and needed re-replacing and then I had to re-seat the ball in the seat. Then to check it is seated properly sprayed some brake cleaner in it. That is thinner than oil so if brake cleaner doesn’t leak past the ball you know oil wont. The brake cleaner did leak so that was good news. Put the motor back together. No smoking and no wet sumping.
PS - I bet you loved wrestling that motor in and out the frame 3 times. ;)
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Thanks for that sounds like another engine strip. might take the sump plate off & see how much oil drains out over night. When I was checking the NZ British spares site there was an add for an inline anti-wet sumping valve. What do you think of these. Thanks again Rory
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Yeah i have used those occasionally on bikes but i dont really like to use them as the oil pumps on these old bikes are not really good and the inline valves can restrict oil flow a bit too much especially on 40's/50's AJS/matchy, nortons BSA M21's etc that have weak pumps to start with. I had probs with an army BSA one time and could not work out why it kept seizing. Eventually found out the oil pump was absolutly junk (whole bike was a lemon really) and although you could see oil pumping into the tank for 5/10 miniutes or what ever and you thought all was good, after a short ride the oil pump would tighten up and seize up and stop pumping oil hence overheating and nipping up :o That was a heck of a problem to find/sort out. Anyway i really think you dont want to put too many restrictions in the oiling system if they cant cope with it as reduced oil circulation could cause problems. What i did was put a drain screw in the sump plate on the B44 so you dont have to remove the plate all the time and tear up your gaskets each time and yeah, put a container under neath and took notes on how much it was leaking overnight/after a few days etc. You really got to make sure your oil is very clean and theres no particles of anything in the motor on assembly. It only takes one little particle of grit to lift the ball bearing off the seat and allow the oil to leak through.
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yeah often over looked, the ball and spring on the oil pump relief valve should be replaced and the oil gallery cleaned, you may have some gunge in there from your overhaul.
new oil pump , springs and balls.
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Is it worth investing in aftermarket (better?)oil pumps on these old girls or is the oem bsa one up to the job?
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By the sound of that i Think i'll invest in a aftermarket pump with the anti wet sump valve and a better filter system,cheap insurance compared to rebuilds
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By the sound of that i Think i'll invest in a aftermarket pump with the anti wet sump valve and a better filter system,cheap insurance compared to rebuilds
pumps get worn and the pressure relief valve is pretty rudimentary, if you are wet sumping in such a short time then something is pretty flogged. Valve on the oil tank also works until the day you forget to turn it on. My AJS has one with a long cord to the twist grip to remind me. ::)
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Thanks every one, next stop is the oil pressure release spring & ball in the timing case as Mark pointed out as if this is not seating it will fill the crank case in no time when the motor is started.
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Yeah i would doubt the oil pump would actually fail, but if the oil pump circuit is by passing excessively it will be the same end result. Hope that fixes it.
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To solve the wet sumping of my brothers Norton Commando he put a large brass shutoff tap in the oil line near to his kickstarter and footpeg. When the tap handle is OFF, it is in the way so that he cant start the bike without turning it into the ON position. Simple and effective, even if it is a tiny bit agricultural, I'll be putting one on my Matchless G80 roadie when it is finished.
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::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D
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found this while looking for ariel parts in uk
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ARIEL-ANTI-WET-SUMPING-VALVE-STAINLESS-/400122272589?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item5d29255b4d
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To solve the wet sumping of my brothers Norton Commando he put a large brass shutoff tap in the oil line
My AJS has same modification, but in the case of the B44 it should be no problem to cure wet sumping by conventional methods.
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there you go, not too much wrong with a NOS one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-NOS-BSA-B25-B44-OIL-PUMP-PART-41-608-CAST-/380231578725?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5887917465
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Heres a site if you go thru links -engine-oil pumps. there's a bit on wet sumping also NOS and hi -flow aftermarket pumps ,cheers
http://www.burtonbikebits.net/ (http://www.burtonbikebits.net/)
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ok this is the latest reseated the non return valve checked it with 3in1 oil so should be good with engine oil left overnight with sump off next to no oil in pan next morning. Started the motor ran for about 5 mins smoke still poured out then drained the sump got 150ml out, is this to much. as for the oil pump I will replace this with a b50 unit when I lay my hands on one.
Again thanks for your help this is driving me crazy. Rory
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Are you sure you have not got a score in the bore and that the rings are the right material for the bore?. Were the valve guides replaced? 150mls left sitting in the crankcase is about normal. There will be a little bit that sits in there.
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No scores in the bore am taking the whole top end over to the machinst who rebored it to check it all tomorrow valve guides were checked and seemed to be ok but now will be replaced as soon as new ones get here. I throught that the rings might be wrong so checked GP part numbers aginst the standard cast iron bored victor they were the same.
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well bang goes the wet sumping theory, worth checking anyway in the process of elimination.
It sounds like it is sucking oil from some place rather than just leaking down, Crankshaft seals?, could it be picking up oil from the primary chain case. Plus of course the comment about valve stem bushes is also valid, it might be that.
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scraper ring upside down??, :P
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After inspection by the machinist the best we could come up with is the rings had not beded in at all so now on the hunt for a new std set. ON a better note my B50 started first kick after the same rebuild treatment well if you dont count setting the timing out by 180 degrees, I blame myself for not reading the destructions on the new electronic ignition.
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What brand is the piston/rings? Some of the ones from Taiwan 10 years ago had really crap rings that wouldnt not bed in I had that problem on Triumphs and a Norton single, but now they have cleaned up their act and the rings are a lot better. All the 'Genuine' Triumph 'Harris' Pistons sold in green boxes are all from Taiwan now. They grind off the logo inside but they are the same as the 'Emgo' and pistons sold in red boxes. I have had no problems with the Taiwanese pistons and rings now and its basically what you gotta use now as stocks of Hepolites have really dried up now.
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Piston is a Hepolite I dont like my chances of getting rings so I was thinking of a new JE piston.
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Piston is a Hepolite I dont like my chances of getting rings so I was thinking of a new JE piston.
JE Piston is the good stuff, owner is Harley guy and what he doesn't know about pistons for air cooled clunkers isn't worth thinking about.
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not trying to run it in with too good an oil,(as your machinists suggest rings didn't bed down),try a basic cheapie running in oil 1st,i've experienced that problem with rebuilt big bore roadie fours,Penrite actually does a running in oil hth,mick
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Well Heopolite is good. the only prob i ever had with on of those is that it was not cam ground.
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Ive just had the same problem on my 650 Triumph I've just rebuilt, continual smoke especially from the LH cylinder. After spending many hours checking for wet sumping, Head defects etc it was found the Cylinder had been bored slightly oval (will never use motor car machinists for motorcycle work again) and tapered top to bottom with only partial bedding in of the one piece oil ring.
A fresh bore, cast iron compression rings and 3 piece oil rings solved the probelm.
Mike
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As above. Use a 3 piece oil ring and the problem will be solved.
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Well back again still with no joy the new set of rings has had no effect still clouds of smoke. starting to think the liner that was put in may have some thing to do with it, or could it be that there is to much oil flowing through the crank out the big end and being thrown on to the cyclinder walls should there be a restrictor in the crank shaft like in some older engines. I am going to walk away from this now and prep my B50 & Triumph for CD7.
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rings from wellington bsa dealer- use mineral based oil to run in not synthetic
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rings from wellington bsa dealer- use mineral based oil to run in not synthetic
Can you explane why should I use mineral oil?
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I am using elcheapo oil for running in no synthetics. This has me stumped. Thanks to all who have helped out hope to see some of you for a beer at cd7. Rory
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Silly question time. You did fit valve stem seals, and didn't cut them when fitted caaarefully?
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I am using elcheapo oil for running in no synthetics. This has me stumped. Thanks to all who have helped out hope to see some of you for a beer at cd7. Rory
Ok, I thought there would be nicer reason than money.
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BSA dont run valve stem seals. But if you know of a retro fit please tell me, I am just about ready to push this bike to the back of the shed. As for using the cheap oil it lets the rings bed into the bore when you run synthetic oil in a new or reconed engine it is to slippy and will not allow the new parts to bed intogether.
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havn't ported thru the inlet port into the valve spring lower retainer relief cutaway,(sucks heaps in when you do!!), :P
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My next move will be to pull the motor out again head off and total strip valve guids out and crack test it. Ports dont look to be enlarged to much, this is what can happen when you buy bikes in boxes.
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B44 & B50s have rubber sealing rings on the rocker spindles. I haven't looked inside a BSA for many years, and too much rough red has destroyed the memory, but if pressure feed to the rockers leaks here, the build up goes down the valve guides.
Just a guess. You can remove the rocker box studs which will allow you pull the rockerbox and or cyl head without pulling the whole motor out of the frame each time. Just don't do this too many times, or they will come loose in their threads.
Mike
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mineral oil will bed in rings- synthetic wont untill motor run in
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In the process of trying to find the source of my continual smoking problem and after replacing all guides and fitting new sealing tubes where the head bolts pass through the single carb Triumph 650 inlet ports, I sent the head to these guys
http://www.metseal.com.au/ for them to seal any porosity.
I cant speak highly enough of them, they were incredibly reasonably priced and provided a 1 day turn around, I sent the head overnight on wednesday and had it back in my hand Friday morning!
It didnt fix the problem but eliminated any doubt about the head.
See an earlier post as to what actually fixed the problem.
Mike
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geezus,extremely rough red ;D,excess oil would tend to go down the pushrod tunnel,(o rings protect our atmosphere,not the motors' ::), :P
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This should be the last installment as the smoke has just about gone, but how I fix it I dont quite know. At the last tear down I changed the oil pump, swapped cast iron valve guides for phospher bronze ones, new valves and a aluminium sump plate with a drain plug. Now I can move on with the rest of the build, hope to finish before Harrisville on the 15th so I can run it there. It will need a good clean to remove all the oil it managed to spray all over but that's the easy part. Plus I will need to jet it as it is a little rich.;