OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: supersenior 50 on April 11, 2010, 11:15:06 pm
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A few weeks ago [19 March] I submitted a proposal to MA,copy to the Chairman Classic MX Commission, the short version of which is that for National Vintage MX titles the events be split pre78 & earlier/EVO & later.
This is in no way intended as a critisism of past events & organisers,rather a recognition of the increasing numbers of classes and the time pressures this creates.
The proposal is a positive move towards a future catering for all bikes & riders.
The proposal is two pages so I don't wish to load up this forum.I also didn't want to throw this into the ring & add to the pre Broadford discussions.
Any one who is genuinely interested in this subject [no rabble rousers please] is welcome to E-mail me for a copy so the prosal & it's rationales can be studied before opinions are formed.
[email protected]
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I think that would be a great thing. Time & tracks make it hard to keep it altogether.
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I think that the new proposal has legs…
Personally I have bikes that were about when I was riding... EVO, and a lot of the tracks that we ride on in VMX (and don’t mind riding on by the way) are what I would have considered to be grasstracks back in the day.. This proposed split may allow us to ride on more MX type modern tracks as well.
With the large numbers of EVO and pre 85 bikes that seem to becoming more available we might be able to split into age based races for this and other more modern classes with maybe longer race formats over more modern type tracks.
Have no idea if this is a feasible proposition or not. I’m sure you guys that have been around longer and more involved in race meeting administration would know if it is.
Col, great to meet you yesterday. Happy to see your proposal. My email is [email protected] Cheers
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Hi,
Changes are due ;
The programme is now too full to allow the inclusion of all Pre 75 age group classes,at the Nats and at State Titles
The addition of pre90 and soon pre95, will make it necessary to run Classic VMX at different time and a more suitable track ,The Modern VMX,Evo, pre 85 pre90, pre95, bikes can race on any MX track anywhere in Australia with their long travel suspension, just imagine how refreshing it will be to have a pre75 Title and not to have all the discussion over changing the track to suit the short travel suspension bikes
The Classic and Modern VMX Titles can be run at different tracks and different times of the year,I see VMX sufferring these growing pains over the past years because we are trying to keep everybody under the same umbrella,its time for an amicable seperation of these two facets of Vintage MotoCross
Its a win,win situation for all concerned.
cheers
Michael Bamford
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This is a sensible and well thought out proposal.Two thumbs up!
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Hallejujah!! Supersenior 50 has come up with a proposal that solves a problem facing our sport before it's actually needed. With the Nationals program verging on capacity and with the pre 90 division not too far into the future it's inevitible that the Nationals be split.
While there are some that will be inconvenienced by having to attend two Nationals, I'm prett certain the overall feeling amongst the troops is that the split is a great idea thats time has arrived. Gone will be the complaints from the pre '75 punters of having to ride tracks that have been rutted and eroded by the long travel, big horsepower Evo and Pre '85 bikes and the Evo, Pre 85 guys can now ride tracks that aren't compromised to please the early bike racers. It's a win/win for both factions.
The proposal also offers the opportunity to reintroduce the much missed capacity age group racing for the pre '75 groups and introduce an opportunity to experiment with age groups in the Evo Pre 85 racing. Those who were around during the sports first decade will know that age groups in all capacities was the key element in the early success of the sport . It offered the racer an opportunity to race his age peers without fear of being taken out by a crazy 16 year old on hid dads Elsinore.
There are a few little problems that need to be addressed but overall, Superseniors articulate and well drafted proposal has all of the needed ingredients. I'd like to see some sensible discussion continue on this proposal without it turning into a pre '75 v pre 85 shitfight. It's the most radical change in the Nats concept since GE and I set up the original basic format in 1991.
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It's an excellent proposal. ;) It's needed now I believe. :'(
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The way the MA Rule Change process works.
- Proposals for the following year are to be submitted from Club, SCB, or individual to MA (MA Commissions Manager) by the 28 February.
- The proposals are put forward by the MA Commissions Manager to the relevant committees, commission, etc at the mid year meeting.
- Between this meeting and the 31st of July the proposals are discussed, documented and minuted and feedback provided to the Commission.
- Post the 31st July & prior to the August MA Board meeting the commission makes a decision on the submissions.
- At the August meeting the MA board ratifies the submission.
- If approved the submission is included in the following years MOM GCR’s
As a result if a submission was put forward on the 19th of March 2010, there is fair chance that it won’t be submitted or heard until 2011 for possible inclusion in 2012.
What I am keen to see is minutes from the meeting that occurs post 28th February & pre 31st July this year to see what has been put forward for the Evolution & Pre85 GCR’s.
If nothing has been put forward prior to the 28th February 2010 then we will be having the same discussion following the NATS in 2011.
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Bahnsy - whilst this maybe correct - if there is enough support towards the concept then MA can consider changes that will allow the concept to be run in 2011. A couple of years ago WA asked to hold only pre 75 Nats and this was allowed. Therefore if everybody follows through with this excellent idea whilst it may not come in to formal discussion next year there should be no reason why it cannot be applied in the same year.
Well done Col - we need a few more doers ;D
regards
Rossco
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Col has just passed on his submission to me, definitely food for thought and it all sounds very reasonable and more importantly do able. If you have not had the opportunity it is well worth reading.
Email Col for a copy... or Col if your following the forum it may be worth posting into this thread.
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Rossco,
You are correct, it can be heard by the commission outside of the dates, hence why i noted, "there is fair chance that it won’t be submitted"
What i am concerned about is where a genuine & well thought out proposal gets public forum time where it may go off the rails and put some people, MA commissioners included, offside.
At the end of the day, the people that debate the pro's and con's of the submission are the MA commissioners not the general public. Yes we can support the submission but we need to be careful that we don't cross the line with a counter productive talk fest.
Rod
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100% Rod and so true.
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Some good points made.The pitfalls as pointed out & to be avoided are :-
Not become a tiresome & counter-productive talkfest.For this reason I decided not to put the whole proposal on this forum.There have been many E-Mailed requests,most of which have been sent the full proposal.
Become an old bike verses "new" bike issue as warned by Firko's post.This needs to be a benefit to all.
The proposal was submitted through the proper channels,and as touched on in Rossco's post using the WA precident,any club can submit a proposal to MA to host the Nats in their chosen format.
I understand no one has put their hand up for 2011.Perhaps this presents an opportunity.
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I Can confirm that this issue is an agenda item for the May (annual) meetings. What you need to do as the stake holders of the sport is to ensure that your State Historic committee is on to it and responds to the proposal that is drafted by the commission. This and all other proposals need to have the agreement AND approval of the State Committee for anything to happen.
The Commission will do nothing unless there is response one way or the other from the States.
Lobby your state to become more involved or miss out!
211
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One point that comes up in my mind is the task of fitting an extra big meeting into an already crowded calendar. With HBBB, Classic Dirt, the Classic DT Nats, the two Vintage Motocross Nats, the various one off specialty meetings (Crawford River, Day in the Dirt, Jack Hogg etc) plus the various individual state series rounds, it's going to take some artistic calendar manipulation to avoid causing interference with existing events. It's also an extra travel expense thrown into the mix.
To be clear, I'm very much in favour of the Nats split but situations such as I've raised need to be addressed before we commit ourselves to such an important decision. I'd suggest that perhaps it'd be worth looking into VIPER, HEAVEN and QVMX reducing the number of rounds in their series by one event to open the calendar up a bit. I'm sure that the club racers who don't bother with National events wouldn't agree but perhaps there may be too many local club meetings anyway? ???
I'm only throwing hypotheticals into the mix and aren't rigidly in favour of cutting calendars per se, I'm merely offering a suggestion.
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Not a good idea cutting club days out of calender to free up a National event. Not everyone wants to compete at a national level every year.
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My Suggestion is.
If the meetings are going to be on the same weekend then we need to have a long weekend if so etc
Saturday, sunday Monday, most people arrive on friday.
if easter weekend is out of the question and the long weekend is it then
Friday could become Scinteering and practise days.
Saturday will host pre 70, pre 65, pre 60
Sunday will host pre 75 pre 78 pre 80.
Monday will host pre 90, pre 85
Now, classes in the morning can be heats, and final in the afternoon and some classes can be taken out, and retain age classes for etc.
Pre 60 lightweight and pre65 lightweight can be combined depending on numbers heat 1
Pre 60 and 65 263 and over can be combined together. heat 2
pre 70 250 --heat 3
pre70 263 & over --heat 4
pre 70 125--- heat 5
under 30 allpower --heat 6
30 to 40 allpowers--heat 7
40 to 50 allpowers--heat 8
over 50 allpowers--heat 9
again depends on numbers there may be 2 heats for one classes, then after lunch finals
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IMO It has be brought back to 2 days not increased to 4:P
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Firko - but to also factor in that not everyone that goes to a pre 78 Nats would also go to a pre 85 (90?) Nats - not everybody can go to every meet. I suppose what I am saying is that yes it's a concern and conflict should be avoided (the meeting kind that is ;D) but we are becoming so wide spread in our "sport" that numbers are going to change - and isn't that part of the proposal for more races, more laps less days etc.
ta
Rossco
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Firko - but to also factor in that not everyone that goes to a pre 78 Nats would also go to a pre 85 (90?) Nats - not everybody can go to every meet
Point taken Ross....I'm merely playing a bit of 'bad cop' against Superseniors 'good cop' proposal. It's reckon its a good thing to throw as many hypothetical scenarios into the mix to help cut off any potential problems before they arise. It'd be interesting to see just how many racers would actually race at both Nats.
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If my proposal gets up , two clubs bite the bullet , and some consideration to age divisions in EVO is included I'll drag my 72 yo bones to both. Pre65, Over 60 125 250 & 263+ Pre75 at one. Over 45[or whatever] 125& 250 EVO at the other.
Now there's an incentive.
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it would be a while before it would be possible but 2 clubs in WA on 2 different tracks could make it worthwhile for Eastern States riders as well if it was run a week apart. Might as well bring 2 bikes than 1 if you were that way inclined.
Rossco
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it would be a while before it would be possible but 2 clubs in WA on 2 different tracks could make it worthwhile for Eastern States riders as well if it was run a week apart. Might as well bring 2 bikes than 1 if you were that way inclined.
I think a quite recent pairing of events showed that the two big events, a week apart doesn't really work. It's very hard to commit time and finances to both events unless you're a local.
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you could be right Firko - it was just that if you were going all the way to WA 2 rides might be better than 1 or the 2 of them several months apart in different states. I think separate meets will make it more convenient for many as far as travelling goes ie I can go to this one close by in NSW (or where ever) rather than having to travel all the way to (wherever) for the Nats as currently stands - that might be a good thing as well.
Rossco
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ma minutes up on web http://www.ma.org.au/fileadmin/user_upload/Documents/Reports___Minutes/2010/24010654_Board_of_Directors_Report_August_2010.pdf
starts on page 21
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MA seems to have made some better rules , I like the over 70's age class idea common sense seems to have won the day here.
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Pity they didnt get the evo age over the line. does that mean if we split up the evo into years at the NAts, that they are not classed as a national title ?
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firko
read the new slider rules
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yer thats all a bit weird, heck i was going cross eyed readingt half that stuff.
Hats of to you Dave tanner for keeping up with the commision workload and what must be mind numbing meetings ;)
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quote:I Can confirm that this issue is an agenda item for the May (annual) meetings. What you need to do as the stake holders of the sport is to ensure that your State Historic committee is on to it and responds to the proposal that is drafted by the commission. This and all other proposals need to have the agreement AND approval of the State Committee for anything to happen.
The Commission will do nothing unless there is response one way or the other from the States.
Lobby your state to become more involved or miss out!
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I haven't read Superseniors proposal so I may be off the mark here, but the Championship can already be split into the two catergories mentioned. or is the proposal something different ?
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not according to the moms
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not according to the moms
Yes according to moms
18.7.11.1
18.7.14.1
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not according to the moms
2011 moms Page 170 Rule 18.12 Australian Classic Motocross and Dirt track Championships.
18.12.1.1 The championships will be run as single meetings at a venue selected by the classic motocross and dirt track commision.
18.12.1.2 Evolution class and pre '85 may be run as part of the Australian classic motocross championship or independently.
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I haven't read Superseniors proposal so I may be off the mark here, but the Championship can already be split into the two catergories mentioned. or is the proposal something different ?
Its alot more than just about the split -PROPOSAL Ref 18.13.1.2 Its observations,ramifications and summary- email sent at you 8) !! via tob.......
cheers A
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i read that as saying you cant run a pre 75 titles without the pre 85 classes, but that the pre 85 can run there own if there is no pre 75 title ? fork knows all too confusing for me.
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I haven't read Superseniors proposal so I may be off the mark here, but the Championship can already be split into the two catergories mentioned. or is the proposal something different ?
Its alot more than just about the split -PROPOSAL Ref 18.13.1.2 Its observations,ramifications and summary- email sent at you 8) !! via tob.......
cheers A
Cheers VMX,
I new I should have read the proposal before posting. Nice job supersenior.
Freaky.........uummmm, doesn't matter. ;)
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2011 MOMS cancelled 18.7.11.1.and 18.12.1.1&2 are contradictory. Proposal is much more far reaching,with benefits to all catagories, and opening doors for the future [Pre90 for instance.]
The amazing thing is that I submitted the proposal over 12 months ago,and it first appeared on this thread on 19 March 2010. Check out replies 2-9 on page one of this thread. Since then it has been kicked around for 12 months and now is getting legs again.I hope we are not having this discussion in another 12 months.
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not according to the moms
2011 moms Page 170 Rule 18.12 Australian Classic Motocross and Dirt track Championships.
18.12.1.1 The championships will be run as single meetings at a venue selected by the classic motocross and dirt track commision.
18.12.1.2 Evolution class and pre '85 may be run as part of the Australian classic motocross championship or independently.
I don't think there is any contradiction.
The way I read these is;
18.12.1.1 = The championships are to be run as one-off meetings ie. Not as a series of events.
18.12.1.2 = It is possible to run a separate event for later eras if they are not part of a championship event that excludes them as has happened in the past (W.A. Nats for example).
Cheers
Shaun
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maybe we should clean up our displine(rules) before opening more doors. it reads that the championship is a single event then the next rule reads that evolution & pre 85 can run as a championship.
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not according to the moms
2011 moms Page 170 Rule 18.12 Australian Classic Motocross and Dirt track Championships.
18.12.1.1 The championships will be run as single meetings at a venue selected by the classic motocross and dirt track commision.
18.12.1.2 Evolution class and pre '85 may be run as part of the Australian classic motocross championship or independently.
I don't think there is any contradiction.
The way I read these is;
18.12.1.1 = The championships are to be run as one-off meetings ie. Not as a series of events.
18.12.1.2 = It is possible to run a separate event for later eras if they are not part of a championship event that excludes them as has happened in the past (W.A. Nats for example).
Cheers
Shaun
in all fairness thats not what it says, you have had to add your own words to the end of the actual wording, so it makes some sence to your interpretation. IT could be made a lot clearer is all we are saying
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This needs to happen folks. Anybody who's attended an Aussie Classic Motocross Championship over the last few years would know that this is a no brainer. The sport has already outgrown the 'one weekend' format and will only get worse. The pre 75 faction of the sport may be in slight decline but it still produces a large entry in all classes at Nats time. For over twenty years this has worked fine but the addition of Evo, pre 85 and eventually pre 90-all classes growing in numbers, the Nats has now become too too big for any given weekend.
I think that part of the problem relating to the Metcher proposal being knocked back by both Sydney based clubs was a lack of understanding of the ramifications of the split and that the proposal wasn't fully discussed with the clubs rank and file at club meeting level. Because of that lack of knowledge the proposal was voted against. What seems to be causing confusion is that some people that I've spoken to have assumed that the split will affect all VMX and VDT events but in truth the proposal only covers the Australian Classic Motocross Championships, all other classic motocross and dirt track events are not affected at all.
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So in a nutshell, the new proposal is to make it a mandatory split between the two era's for 2012, as opposed to the current "option" of the club/promoter making the decision as to wheather to split the eras or not ?
How would this affect the costs to clubs who run the later era event, would MA be "double dipping" on the fees to run two seperate Australian title events ?
Will it be viable for clubs to run an event with potentially half the entries of the past, but still having to cough up the same costs to run the event?
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this might help,
HELLO!
this is a social website" thats all " and nothing will come of the ramblings on here!!!!! nobody from MA or your state body are watching and if they are, they are not chartered to make up the rules as they go, so stop your whinging and take the changes and Cols proposal to YOUR club if that's what you support, but its to late too little now, oh well maybe 2014 we might get off our arses.
Simple.
Cheers Trev
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2011 MOMS cancelled 18.7.11.1.and 18.12.1.1&2 are contradictory.
I guess I need to get a new manual.
So who draws up the final wording of these rules?
Doesn't anybody check for the contradictions they seem to make through out the book.
MA shouldn't need to rely on submissions from clubs to fix some of the bleeding obvious contradictions
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hear hear!!! gmc. as i said before the moms is printed on white paper but there is a lot of grey in it.