OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: TT on February 28, 2010, 04:57:42 pm
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I'm just watching the V8's from Bahrain, and I can't help wondering why they bother.
It's even worse than Abu Dahbi with the empty stands and absolutely no atmosphere.
What am I missing?
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It's called marketing. The V8 organizers are trying to widen the audience base and appeal. The more viewers the more sponsors $$$$'s they can justify. They see the Arab World as untapped.
Misguided? Probably. But great marketing theory ;) :).
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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
You aussies & us kiwis don't pay enough to stage a race, probably get paid more to put on either of those races than for the rest of the series.
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Ford and Holden must sell cars there.
I can't imagine the manufacturers agreeing to the race schedule going O.S. unless there is something in it for them, and that something being $$$$
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Supertaxi's go anywhere that will pay them. If someone paid them enough they would race in downtown Kabul/Bagdad.
Thing about them that shits me something severe is V8Supercars Aust 'prefered option' is for street races in Australia. So we get various State governments wasting gazillions on street circuits and no proper permenant circuits for the great unwashed to race on.Basicaly because they don't want to pay for circuit hire, just money grabbing blood sucking vampires
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Who pays them to go there ? Can't imagine it would be th organisers.
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Holden sell cars into the Arab countries, Ford dont. Those bloodsucking Arabs pay to have the races in their own country....... with the money they make out of us....OIL money!!!!!, so at the end of the day YOU and I are paying for it!!!!
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looked like they packed out the stands as well................
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Well at least those big open tracks over there produce some decent races with the occasional successful pass, unlike the stupid street circuits where every attempted pass results in safety cars and tilt trays.
Although I don't see the point of racing on the other side of the world in front of a few security guards and a dozen camels.
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That sums it up pretty well, Mr. Punk. ;D
The total lack of atmosphere really took away any interest for me.
It was good to see the guy on the tractor not being distracted from his work, though............ ::)
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If I was the marketing manager for Coopers, Jim Beam or Jack Daniels I'd be pretty pissed off seeing my extravagent sponsorship dollar signage covered over so as not to offend the teetotal muslims. Methinks Tony Cochrane and the whole V8 supercar outfit have lost the plot. The sooner they get rid of these clowns and quest for world dominance and introduce the same regs that cover the V8 Ute class, we'll get back to proper Aussie style touring car racing and not have to endure this this cocked up Nascar wannabe.
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Me thinks Tony Cochrane and the whole V8 supercar outfit have lost the plot. The sooner they get rid of these clowns and quest for world dominance and introduce the same regs that cover the V8 Ute class, we'll get back to proper Aussie style touring car racing and not have to endure this this cocked up Nascar wannabe.
I'm getting pretty sick of your namby pamby, sit-on-the-fence comments Firko. Give us an honest opinion for once......... :D :D :D
For the record, I agree whole heartedly but didn't have the vocabulary to express it this well. ;D
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Have a look at where all the newer world championship races are, all new circuits in the middle east that get no spectators but pay the series owners well. The night time motogp race is the perfect example but I guess at least the riders are not battling heat exhaustion, TV rights are where its at for these guys
V8supercar,Dorna etc are all the same, as long as the circuit owners are prepared to pay them they'll send them the entertainment & nail anyone financially who refuses to go
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introduce the same regs that cover the V8 Ute class, we'll get back to proper Aussie style touring car racing and not have to endure this this cocked up Nascar wannabe.
Couldn't agree more, the cars they are running at the moment are boring as bat shit!
I think Martin Whitaker, CEO of Bahrain Circuit is the guy forking out the dollars for the whole middle east experiment, and he will be the new CEO of V8 Supercars this year so expect a lot more OS events in the future...hopefully they will end up spending so much time OS that someone can start a real touring car class in OZ again
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Handing over 30 million dollars to a bunch of V8 Stupidcar drivers to hoon around the streets of Homebush is good value for money compared to handing over 100 million dollars to a bunch of Catholic kiddies to re-enact the death of Christ and write offensive slogans on War Memorials.
130 million would have gone a long way into providing a NSW motorcycle racing complex...... but silly me, that would have benefited the current and future people of NSW!! ???
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Five years ago I used to travel to at least three V8 rounds including Bathurst and watch every other round on the tube. Last year I only went to the Clipsal in Adelaide and watched only Bathurst on the telly. This year is likely to be the same.
I'd avoid the Clipsal as well if I didn't use it as an opportunity to meet up with my god sons who live in Adelaide. If they moved back to Sydney I wouldn't bother.
In the bid for parity the V8SA have sucked every last bit of individuality and soul out of the cars and by using those awful street circuits have removed any chance of serious passing moves or exciting racing. Races are now more often won or lost in the pits and not on the track.
Nearly everyone I speak to has also gone off the V8s and most of my friends who once followed the sport with rabid intensity now just have a casual passing interest. Where we all agree is that the most exciting series on the calendar is the Utes. The cars are still based on the cars you and I drive, are very close to street registerable, don't have any parity issues but still have that great Holden versus Ford attraction. My cousing has a bit to do with Jack Elsegoods Coopers Falcon utes and I was impressed at how close to stock they are which must make it more approachable for individuals to race. Even Jesus has a car in the series!
Another point that will eventually affect the V8s is the changing demographics of their target audience. As recent as 10 years ago the average young motor racing fan yearned for a V8 Commodore/XR8 Falcon but today they are more interested in owning a WRX Impreza, Mitsubishi Evo, Nissan Skyline or something. They look at the kind of cars their dads like as dinosaurs. Once the fast emerging Gen Y race fans have pushed the Baby Boomer and Gen X V8 fans off the consumer frontline the V8 series could go into a rapid interest decline.
The increased interest in the historic racing Biante series and events like the Muscle Car Masters would indicate that the boomers and Gen Xers are also dissatisfied with the current format and are nostalgic for 'how it once was'. I predict troubled times ahead for Tony Cochrane and his vision for Aussie touring car racing.
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…Where we all agree is that the most exciting series on the calendar is the Utes. The cars are still based on the cars you and I drive, are very close to street registerable, don't have any parity issues but still have that great Holden versus Ford attraction.
Just take an Aussie Legends car, scale it up in size and go racing. They have shown that parity doesn't have to mean dull racing…
Not sure about the Utes though, they sound OK, but sure look slow on TV, a great support class. Much better racing than the V8's but you may as well go production racing - and you know how exciting that is [judging by the crowds their events don't attract].
To my mind, you need to make the cars more of a handful when on the limit [ie. the Aussie Race Cars]. The V8s reward consistency and finesse - great to challenge the drivers skills - but boring racing from the outside. If they do happen to grab one by the scruff of the neck, its tyres are toast in 3 laps. Give'm more power, less sophisticated suspension and brakes, and tyres that go all day [sure they will moan about the grip, but it will be the same for all] and then the driver will make the difference [not the guy on the lap top in the pits].
That is another thing that gets stuck in my craw - you look through the pits and there are no greasy hands just techies on laptops - thats not motor racing. I know it is supposed to look professional, but the 'no urgency' look is boring as bat s$%t.
Lastly when was the last time you saw somebody take to the boot of a car with an axe during refueling - can't do that with a laptop.
Man I must be getting old…
VMX42
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I predict troubled times ahead for Tony Cochrane and his vision for Aussie touring car racing.
One can only hope so. The current cars are 'undertyred' as opposed to the old Grp C cars that were way overtyred.Most of those had about 400 odd HP today it's 600 odd HP, making them drivable for a full race would LESS power not more.I have yet to see good suspension tear up tyres. That's is excactly what the Aussie Cars have.
Any kind of production racing gets very expensive very quickly when truck loads of OEM parts are needed.
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we'll get back to proper Aussie style touring car racing and not have to endure this this cocked up Nascar wannabe.
It was better in the past? How can this be? IMHO Aussie V8's is the coolest formula in the boring world of 4 wheel racing (I'm excluding WRC 'cause that's off road and, therefore, infinitely superior).
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I agree with Firko that the cars that are raced should at least resemble the production cars. After all the major marketing and support behind V8 Supercars is the Ford vs Holden thing. The reality is that the only thing they share with road cars is the body shell.
Many people I have spoken to are adamant that the cars run the 6.0L GenIV and 5.4 Boss engines, however last time I checked they were still running 5.0L Chevs and Windsors, pretty close if not the same as NASCAR engines.
To me it is boring to watch and although I still like to see Ford win, I get more out of seeing who wins the latest shootout in Motor/Wheels magazine.
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Many people I have spoken to are adamant that the cars run the 6.0L GenIV and 5.4 Boss engines, however last time I checked they were still running 5.0L Chevs and Windsors, pretty close if not the same as NASCAR engines.
When did either manufacturer last sell a 5 litre car, it's my understanding as well that the engines are NASCAR based & have been for the best part of 10 years.
The comments on changing demoghaphics are probably spot on, most younger people couldn't give a toss about a 2 make series running v8's, they'd much rather see & hear turbo &/or rotary cars battling it out
Any time rule makers keep changing rules for parity reasons the spectacle seems to decrease, 1 team guesses right & gets a head start on the rest who struggle to catch them for most of the season so then the rules get changed again. Formula 1 is best example of this closely followed by motogp & their spec class called moto2
Not sure how the average fan can alter this though
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Tony T, I'm surprised you had to watch both those rounds you mention in your original post to come to the conclusion you have.
On another note and maybe I am misunderstanding you but in a subsequent post you have a bit of a dig at Firko for for his Namby Pamby sit on the fence comments and in the very next sentence you agree with everthing he had to say.
As always I will stand corrected.
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Tony was merely taking the piss Col. A joke. ;D No offence intended or taken. ;)
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Car racing hasn't been worth watching since I last saw Stormin' Norm in a 7lt Ford Galaxy get into Creek Corner sideways in front of 2 mini's, a Lotus Cortina, a Jag and two Mustungs. :-\ 8).
Bring back the good old days, that's what I say. ;D
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Boring as Bat Sh#t, bring on the street circuits.
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As always, a bit slow on the uptake.
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As always, a bit slow on the uptake.
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But happily, not repetitive ! ;D
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Car racing hasn't been worth watching since I last saw Stormin' Norm in a 7lt Ford Galaxy get into Creek Corner sideways in front of 2 mini's, a Lotus Cortina, a Jag and two Mustungs. :-\ 8).
Bring back the good old days, that's what I say. ;D
No argument from me - THE wildest race I ever saw had to be 1971 at Oran Park when Moffat went nuts trying to get the ATCC title and nearly got the 302 Boss past Bob Jane's ZL1 427 at BP Bend and the crowd went TOTALLY berserk as they crossed the line inches apart. Whew! goose bumps just remembering...
Just think back to Jane, Moffat, Beechey, Geoghegan. wwwooooo!
(http://www.allanmoffat.com.au/again/arc_images_notcortina/main_transammustang.gif)
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The best racing I've seen over the last couple of years (besides the Utes) has been the Biante series for historic tourers. Seeing Jim Richards in his humble 289 Windsor powered Falcon Sprint sticking it to cars with 200bhp more is wonderful. The variety of cars ranges from Jims humble Falcon to big block Camaros, Boss 302 Mustangs, 350 Monaros, 351 Falcons, Charger R/T Hemis and even a couple of Rambler Javelins. The racing is tight and close, reminicent of those wonderful days of Jane, Beechey and Geohegan in their Mustangs being nipped at the heels by the Alfa Romeos, Lotus Cortinas and Mini Coopers.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/21_sport.jpg)
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I pinched this from the internet - Marked as Mallala but I reckon Homestead Corner Warwick Farm. Captures the period - mix of cars and the speed boating attitude under acceleration and the lurching through corners - you can see them working hard.
(http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/8461/humpies7tu6.jpg) (http://img261.imageshack.us/i/humpies7tu6.jpg/)
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Before the EH Holdens, Lotus Cortinas and then the Mustangs ruled, touring car racing was owned by the mighty Jaguar. As a Jag man this photo does it for me, you can feel them fighting the heavy big things, dragging that big steering wheel around. It must have been a cold day going by the cardboard accross both grilles.
I once had the pleasure of being taken on three fast laps around Wakefield Park in the passenger seat of the ex Bob Jane Championship winning 3.8 Jag. It was a real A ticket ride, even more amazing considering that the driver was in his seventies and wasn't afraid to stick it to the beautifully restored old gem.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/jag.jpg)
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I was the same,always did calder,phillip island,sandown400/500 and then Bathurst since '95 and i stopped going to most of them about 4 years ago and hardly watch them or just have it going in the background.
About the only thing left that is production are the grill badges and the rear 1/4s...the rest is chopped (the VE is shorter to match the older falcon)5.0 lt engines composite front panels etc etc Tony cockring keeps harping on about the best formula and family orientated motorsport there is.
From what i have seen,the Biante series historics gets me interested...not because i own a HJ,but what i grew up around.
Another thing missing these days is hero's and characters that were a mixed age group.What you see in most sports these days are teenagers and young ones groomed to be TV wise politically correct and boring as batshit.Also if they are contracted to a particular TV network (Courtney and his dancing ways)
they push the crap out of him even if he is down the field.
Another thing that p!sses me of with most sports is the general 100% pure fan keeps footing the higher entrance and establishment costs every year whilst the "try to be" A grade listers rub shoulders with the whos who to get their photo in the paper that know jacksh!t about any sport and get in for free.
They stopped getting my money although i still occasionally go to the Formula 1 because its a good perve and the sound of the F1 engines gets me "hard"....and the last few years good bands have been playing after the race....also my sisters niece will be singing the national anthem this year ;)
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Tony T, I'm surprised you had to watch both those rounds you mention in your original post to come to the conclusion you have.
On another note and maybe I am misunderstanding you but in a subsequent post you have a bit of a dig at Firko for for his Namby Pamby sit on the fence comments and in the very next sentence you agree with everthing he had to say.
As always I will stand corrected.
Sorry Col. Yeah, it was a joke. That's the danger of the internet when you couldn't see my tongue firmly planted in my left cheek. ;)
FWIW I've been lucky enough to spend a bit of time alongside Alan Moffatt. He ain't young either, but shit he can still steer! ;D
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Before the EH Holdens, Lotus Cortinas and then the Mustangs ruled, touring car racing was owned by the mighty Jaguar. As a Jag man this photo does it for me, you can feel them fighting the heavy big things, dragging that big steering wheel around. It must have been a cold day going by the cardboard accross both grilles.
I once had the pleasure of being taken on three fast laps around Wakefield Park in the passenger seat of the ex Bob Jane Championship winning 3.8 Jag. It was a real A ticket ride, even more amazing considering that the driver was in his seventies and wasn't afraid to stick it to the beautifully restored old gem.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/jag.jpg)
Back in the day when touring car meant the car could be registered and driven to the circuit (notice rego Vic OO-088!!).
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Sorry Guys, but if you think production racing is the answer then you have your rose tinted glasses on.
It has been tried time and time [and time] again and the complete lack of any form of spectator involvement always condemns it to irrelevance. How many of you went to Bathurst late last year for the big production race [or even knew that it was on]?
I never got to see [as Firko has said] "Jane, Beechey and Geohegan in their Mustangs being nipped at the heels by the Alfa Romeos, Lotus Cortinas and Mini Coopers" so I think I should take a look at the Biante series this year to get a look at what I missed.
To my mind any form of motorsport where 'repeated perfection' is required for success is boring. I think modern Supercross fits that bill well. It is a great sport - but in its current form the riders have to be 'inch perfect' do down side the jumps that it becomes a display. The only place that rewards a rider when taking a risk is the Whoop section where a brave rider can hang it out in true Motocross fashion and hopefully gain some time or positions.
MotoGP is the same, it currently rewards total precision with great lap times. A speculative block pass down the inside is rewarded with a 3 second increase your lap time and no chance of winning. So we end up with a procession and the occasional pass when the rider in front makes a small mistake and looses momentum. Again boring racing - a great spectacle, and riders with great skill but still boring racing in the main.
And the V8 Supercars are the same. They reward precision. It is not the driver with the biggest balls that is successful, but the one who is the most precise. The cars need to be driven 'straight' and have their tyres conserved to achieve the shortest race time, and therefore the best finishing position. A driver that grabs his car by the scruff of the neck and 'gives it some' simply goes backwards as his tyres go off.
How it that entertaining?? So we need a formula that give the driver a car that be thrown around all day, that allow for all types of driving styles to feature, not just the boring, robotic precision of the current crop. I am not saying that the current drivers aren't skilled it is just that certain skills are more valued than others.
Having said all that I suppose it is no surprise that I think of all the current motorsports WRC is the most interesting as they never come close to achieving perfection, they have to take care of the cars, but they also have big balls and lots of wide eye moments. They are fast and only seconds away from disaster at any time.
So having said that then maybe we should bring back 'Rallycross'. Now Catalina Park, that was a hoot… [rose coloured glasses or not]!
VMX42
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"Mr Cochrane said the sport was looking to stage more events overseas, following on from races this year in Dubai and Abu Dhabi. Singapore is tipped for 2011.
"It's stepping stones and there's no question that in the future we would probably like that to grow into five or six international events," he said. "
http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/germans-to-join-v8-supercars-20100309-pvdm.html
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I reckon the loonies in the V8 utes fit the entertainment bill nicely ;D
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Whilst I don't disagree with you Jeff there is a few good reasons why we have 'perfection' in racing. First is data/telemetry, with this there is no real alternative if you team mate is 1 second a lap faster you overlay the data and hey look you have a different line into turn 2 that's 3m longer , it can easily be seen if your overdriving/riding the vehicle. Next would be the big money and pressure to win, if you want to keep that well paid dream job as a professional racer, you have to do what the team asks.
Taking 200HP from a V8 and giving them bigger harder tyresand smaller brakes, would be a start. But changes cost big $$$$
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Hey Lozza,
I understand why we end up with 'perfection' in racing. And as an almost scientific endeavour I love the processes and technologies involved - it IS fascinating. But the question here is how to balance the pursuit of 'perfection' and generating a set of rules that allows great 'racing' - that is what I was trying to say [probably badly]. It seems that presently it is almost impossible to have both.
I stick by my Supercross example and why outdoor motocross is infinitely superior in both the racing and the spectacle.
Maybe the machines have become just too good. IMHO the best racing occurs when the rider/driver has to exercise great control over a machine that is slightly inconsistent in its behaviour on the limit - think rallying or speedway - the limit is so hazy that the driver/rider is constantly reassessing just where the limit actually is. The result is 'big eyes' for the rider and lots of Oh's and Ahh's from the crowd.
Maybe if the V8's were more like enlarged 'Aussie Legend' cars the racing would, perhaps, be far better and more entertaining.
As I said, I love the technology but not at the expense of great racing. If that means that the machines have to be simpler with more restrictive rules that actually promote passing and dicing on the track then I wouldn't mind one bit.
This is a good, interesting subject. Maybe there is an answer out there somewhere…? Back to you!!
VMX42
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It's a show , Both Holden and Ford run pretty much the same cars.... Cockhead has firked it up that much that they have to cut and shut them to fit inside a template. Racing of production cars are long gone and in a way was the biginning of the end in my eyes.
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It is probably impossible to have both, as the technology allows perfection each and every time there is no guesswork.Engineers in professional teams pretty much know 'everything' after the first session, as they have already simulated everything from previous data.That goes for the engine/chassis build as well.
I still think great tracks make great races. Phillip Island and Laguna Seca consistantly produce great races(with Laguna 08 many fans choice of the race of the decade), the answer isn't street races or Herman Tilke designed abominations.The more the track takes advantage of natural terrain the better it seems to be.Which is consistent with your outdoor v's SX analogy.
I don't think there is any more or less brown pants moments today as there was yesterday, these days everyone scrapes their elbow in MotoGP that's going pretty hard, going through Reid Pk on a sub 2.10min lap with the mirror kissing the wall, at Bathurst still frightens all the V8 drivers.
I've had a close look at a V8(a Fujitsu car) and they basicaly are up scaled aussie cars, ie a tubular space frame with a 'body' bolted onto it. All the panels are pop riveted together and to the space frame on a V8, the big difference is the three zero's on the end of the price of everything for a V8 ;D
NASCAR is simple and cars are close(and a lot more technology than any fan would admit) etc etc but to any racing purist resembles the WWF.
My quick fix comes directly from Peter Clifford of WCM (http://www.motomatters.com/interview/2009/11/12/peter_clifford_interview_wcm_blata_and_p.html) fame........................... 4 speed gearboxes............
Formula Ford and 125GP embodies all the on the limit, close racing , elbows out and rubbing is racing ethos but unfortunately that's when most race fans go to the loo and the beer tent :D
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watching Adelaide Utes now :o what a hoot and the crowd is packed inn..restarts..pushing and shoving,,what a calamity...just like the old speedway ,but with colorful utes 8) great stuff :P