OzVMX Forum
Marketplace => For Sale => Topic started by: Nathan S on December 14, 2009, 10:19:47 pm
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I've got a brand new, never-opened 20-litre drum of ET Racing 102 octane racing fuel.
FIA, CAMS, FIM approved.
$110 to buy from ET racing Fuels, will sell for $50.
http://www.etracingfuels.com/
Nathan. 04000 23847.
Located in Yass NSW, can bring to Canberra most weekdays.
Sold, pending payment.
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Sold if not paid for :O)
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PPS . what s the story with alcohol, is ther more than 1 sort and if so which one for bikes and castor oil, What price per litre ? any ideas
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Sold if not paid for :O)
OMG - Freaky's pulling me up on language issues!?
How about: Provisionally sold, payment pending.
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Sold if not paid for :O)
OMG - Freaky's pulling me up on language issues!?
How about: Provisionally sold, payment pending.
Nar nath you dick, what i meant was if he doesnt pay up ill buy ; as in resold, if he no pay pay.
I live for miss spelling, go for it, it make me warm and fuzzy, id never pull it up. :O)
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Race fuel wins in every way except cost.
Avgas is really quite crap in performance motors - its only saving grace is that it is very resistant to detonation.
I've said this before, but it bears repeating:
When leaded fuels were banned in rallying, people with Avgas motors did one of four things:
1. Richened the mixtures and retarded the timing to avoid detonation, and used PULP. These guys lost heaps of power and heaps of drivability.
2. Went and bought race fuel, poured it into their fuel tank, and simply carried on. These guys usually found a few more kilowatts (call it 5% as a rough figure), at the expense of a much larger fuel bill.
3. Rebuilt their motors with more compression, and re-tuned for race fuel. These guys got a ~10% increase over their properly tuned Avgas motors.
4. Decomrpessed and retuned their engines, and ran them on PULP. This group invariably got a few percent MORE power than they did with Avgas, with lower running costs. The drawback is that you then needed to be careful to get good, clean, fresh fuel.
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Avgas is really quite crap in performance motors - its only saving grace is that it is very resistant to detonation.
I don't know what you guys get for Avgas, but the 100LL we get here in the states runs exceptionally well in all my bikes, old and new.
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I don't know what you guys get for Avgas, but the 100LL we get here in the states runs exceptionally well in all my bikes, old and new.
At least until when Avgas got hard to buy here, we could only got the high lead stuff. Great resistance to knocking, but burns too slowly.
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"Avgas" is not that good for high revving engines of any kind, it was designed for Aircraft engines that predominatly only rev between 2000 to 3000 RPM. Because of this it is very slow burning, it does have a very high anti-knock additive though. This is a very complicated subject that could go on for 100's of pages, best and simplest advice..... buy proper race gas....eg ELF, VP ect... and remember theres all different ratings so you need to talk to the rep on your needs...ie...type of engine....2 or 4 stroke, type of racing, compression ratio, bla bla bla.... this will probably open a can of worms and it's your fault Nathan!!!!
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All of the commercially available race fuels will give you the consistancy you want.
They've all got info on what standards they meet, too - AFAIK, there's few few that aren't acceptable from VMX racing.
They will all be a step up from Avgas.
So which one you choose really comes down to what you can get easily, what features you want, and price.
Off the top of my head, the brands that are easy to buy in Australia are: Elf, Sunoco, ET Racing, Martini and VP.
The only other thing I can offer, is when you retune, don't expect it to behave exactly like Avgas - I know of people who have stubbornly insisted that they "Shouldn't have to change the timing - we worked out that this setting was best years ago!", and ignored the fact that it was the best for a very different fuel.... ::)
And 9.5:1 static? Unless the combustion chamber is really awful, you could be running E10!
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The current theory is to run a squish band that's very tight (minimal clearance between the piston and head) and fairly wide, a flat-top piston and then have a roughly hemispherical combustion chamber in the middle. This allows maximum compression ratio and a good burn with minimal chance of detonation.
How well you can actually acheive that with old design Yamaha heads, is another question...
There are plenty of 2-valve competition car motors that happily run up to 11.5:1 on 98 octane PULP - 10.5:1 is considered safe. Remember that the bigger the bore, the smaller the cam(s) and air-cooling all increase the chance of detonation.
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"Avgas" is not that good for high revving engines of any kind, it was designed for Aircraft engines that predominatly only rev between 2000 to 3000 RPM. Because of this it is very slow burning, it does have a very high anti-knock additive though. This is a very complicated subject that could go on for 100's of pages, best and simplest advice..... buy proper race gas....eg ELF, VP ect... and remember theres all different ratings so you need to talk to the rep on your needs...ie...type of engine....2 or 4 stroke, type of racing, compression ratio, bla bla bla.... this will probably open a can of worms and it's your fault Nathan!!!!
Here come the worms. The big question is what Avgas is available to y'all? The common fuel here is 100LL. It has two grams of lead per US gallon with a distillation curve and specific gravity very similar to to VP Red race gas. It works excellent in two stroke and four stroke mx bikes. It gives excellent throttle response with no spooge and the top end stays nice and clean. The best part is it only costs 1/3 the price of race fuel. Works so go that I beat one of our national champions last Sunday using it my '82 RM250. He was on a YZ490.
Nothing wrong with 100LL Avgas at all.
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canoworms?,i'm in ;D,avgas with 20% methanol,my preferred brew, :P
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PLEASE NOTE - I HAVE POSTED THIS AS A VMX RIDER - NOT AS A FUEL SALESMAN!! :o
Hi guys, We run a motorsport engineering company in Perth (building,running etc race & rally cars) & are the WA distributor for ELF race fuels. Prior to taking on the ELF deal, we were using VP, PULP or AVGAS in our cars but did back to back tests & found the ELF to give better results than everything else we tried.
There's plenty of info on the different fuels available on the ELF website at racefuels.com.au however
the two most suitable fuels for bikes are: "BFK07" - which is a 98 octane unleaded fuel (no comparison to the 98 octane swamp water that you can buy at the local servo however!) or "MotoGP" which is 101.7 octane unleaded.
We sell loads of these fuels to guys running everything from modern MX, junior MX, superbikes, 125 & 250 GP bikes & karts & all the feedback we've had from these guys has been positive in terms of performance.(only complaint we've had is the cost of this type of fuel compared to PULP or AVGAS :()
If you're looking for a bit more performance it'd be well worth trying one of these fuels - our tuner tells me that compared to other mods this is cheap horsepower.
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Hi Wasp, Which one you'd want depends on what the rule book says - some classes/disciplines only allow up to 100 octane. ie: dirt track karts can only use the 98 but for some reason bitumen karts are allowed to use the 101.7 octane. If you weren't restricted by rules though you'd use the 101.7 stuff. If you're not worried about complying with rules ;) there is another one you should try called PERFO 105. This is an "unleaded fuel for naturally aspirated or turbo 4 stroke engines" with an octane rating of 113! This one has 16.3% oxygen compared to 2.6% in the 101.7 fuel.
Due to the way the ELF distributorship is setup we can't sell interstate so you'd need to contact the guys at Performance Fuels SA (Craig Rundle - 1300 726 084 or 0413 011 137)
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The only problem I had with Elf is you had to buy it in 50 litre drums so you have to store it correctly and it cost a motsa!!! , but it's like putting a turbo on your engine!!!. The word "oxinginated" is the secret to the workings of it. ;)
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Just make sure the engine is well and truly up to temp if it's air cooled. That's when your detonation problems will show up. It used to take my bucket racer at least a lap before it would start to knock if I used the wrong fuel.
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Hi Davey Crockett, I'm not sure what the ELF distributors in other states do, but we get our fuel over in 200 litre drums & will either sell it like this or can decant into 20 or 50 litre drums or your own jerry cans or drums etc.
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CamP we have 100LL avgas and BP100 high lead , both have a specific gravity of 0.72 compared to plain PULP fuel which has an SG of 0.78. Avgas is consistent from batch to batch but so is BP98. I used to use avgas but after the price going to over $60 for a 20 litre drum(you can no longer get from airfields), alternatives were looked at after much dicking round BP98 based brew outperformed avgas in every area at about a 1/3 of the cost.Have run as high as 14:1 UCCR on water cooled engines on PULP with no detonation isssues, just as easy to jet and more HP produced.
Moto124 is THE fuel to use ;)
How well you can actually acheive that with old design Yamaha heads, is another question...
Pretty easy actually...................
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Sounds like your 100LL must be expensive. I pay only $0.92 US per liter for it here and it's readily available. Is the BP98 an unleaded fuel? I use 100LL for the small shot of lead that it contains. I don't run it to squeak out another 1hp out of my RM. Race engines live longer with a little lead and the old two strokes especially like it. A similar leaded race fuel costs 3-4x as much in our area and doesn't run noticeably better.
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No such thing as a free lunch, you must tune for the PULP. When you make the changes you get the gains. Kart engines that I have help tune( to the point of deto every time on the track) with PULP BP 98 show no longevity issues due to no lead.Same with my engines.Oil provides the primary lubrication for a two stroke, lead is an anti-knock/octane boost agent
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Before i start, please note i have been refered to as Basic before, Ive been running shell 100 LL in a couple of my bikes (RM125N and CR25076 model) which seem to have higher compression than some of my others. The lower comp ones i just run on Vortex 98. seems to work well. I got it from the green goanna. Any one used this stuff?
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How well you can actually acheive that with old design Yamaha heads, is another question...
Pretty easy actually...................
Remember that we're talking about one of those silly motors with cams and valves and stuff.
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Oil provides the primary lubrication for a two stroke, lead is an anti-knock/octane boost agent
That's true but lead also acts as a lubricant and adds an extra level of safety for a racing two stroke that gets revved hard. It also increases titanium valve life in four stroke likes my CRF450.
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LEAD IS GOOD, how do they put into petrol anyway? doesnt seem soluble
Brett
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That's because it's Tetra Ethyl Lead or (TEL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetra-ethyl_lead)) not something like a sinker.TEL is VERY nasty stuff , it's cumulative in your system and fatal if swallowed. CamP not to labour the point but GP bikes have run just fine on ULP since 97. It's helpful tuning at the very sharp end but by no means is it essential.
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This is the most interesting FOR Sale I have seen
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That's because it's Tetra Ethyl Lead or (TEL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetra-ethyl_lead)) not something like a sinker.TEL is VERY nasty stuff , it's cumulative in your system and fatal if swallowed. CamP not to labour the point but GP bikes have run just fine on ULP since 97. It's helpful tuning at the very sharp end but by no means is it essential.
All the major sanctioning bodies have gone to an unleaded fuel spec for only one reason, emissions. Ask any professional race engine builder what fuel he'd prefer to build around and he'll tell you a leaded fuel.
Even 100LL is on the chopping block. The fuel that will replace it will be similar to the current premium unleaded automotive fuel without ethanol.
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TEL isn't all that bad. The reason the world has gone to ULP is because leaded fuel kills catalytic converters.
In the never-ending attempt to simplify things so that even the most dim-witted moron can be convinced of 'stuff', we've simply been told that "lead in fuel is bad for people's health!", when its fundamentally not true.
1. Catalytic converters reduce the nasties coming out of vehicle tail-pipes.
2. Lead kills catalytic converters.
3. Therefore unleaded fuel allows vehicles to be fitted with catalytic converters, and ultimately produce less pollution.
4. Vehicles that are not fitted with a catalytic converter will produce MORE natsies when run on ULP than on leaded petrol, due to the addition of other chemicals to increase the knock thresh-hold.
Normal (in Australia) AvGas, however, has a heap of lead - far more than is useful in a conventional engine.
The ET 102 fuel has been paid for and picked up, BTW.
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run methanol
drill the jets out to double size open the mixture to twice the standard and go hard
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"lead in fuel is bad for people's health!", when its fundamentally not true.
It is FUNDAMENTALLY true. Are you going to disregard the accumulative neurotoxicity of lead? Perhaps you are showing symptoms? FFS.
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Linkage?
Lead as (used to be) found in paints etc is undeniably nasty stuff.
I looked a few years ago, and found nothing meaningful about direct health effects from lead in fuel. Lots of vague statements to be sure, but nothing even remotely technical/scienfitic
If I am suffering from it, its from handling solder, not breathing it in...
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaded_petrol (look at the bit titled Toxicity). This is a bit clearer than anything I read at the time, however, I've also read stuff that questioned the actual concentrations from vehicles, etc.
Further, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning strongly suggests that fuel is (was) only a small contributor to lead in the environment.
As I originally stated, we have ULP because its good for catalytic converters, not because its good for our health.
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The hydrocarbons and other nasties present in unleaded fuel are a darn sight worse for your helath than the lead in leaded fuel is/was.
Catalytic converters only work for about 20,000kms (at most) before they stop doing their job properly and they also only work after they're hot.
Your unleaded engine on it's cold start sequence with a cold catalytic converter is cranking out clouds of incredibly toxic stuff. That's why, years ago, they started bleating in the media about how you should start your car up and drive away immediately instead of hanging around to warm the engine up.
It was to avoid the nasties in the new unleaded fuel.
They also discovered that lead levels in childrens' blood started to decline when they stopped using leaded paints. No such decline was measured when they switched to leaded fuel. On that basis, it would seem that blood lead levels have stuff all to do with fuel.
By the way, how many of you are running a catalytic converter on your VMX bikes?
I'd have thought the answer would be NONE!! Which means that for the sake of your health and the health of other riders on the track with you, you're actually better off running leaded fuel.
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Motorex make a "Valve Guard" lead substitute. 1ml per 1L. Designed for new sceaming 4 srokes to help extend valve life and I have heard from people who should know that it works a treat. When I am running ULP 98 in my old 2 strokes I add a bit as well, no problems .It says it replaces the lubricating effects of lead and cleans the entire fuel system- I am a bit dubious about the last statement, but hey it is made in Switzerland.The ingredient is n-Paraffine.
What is the report from those that have tried the VP fuel?
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Motorex make a "Valve Guard" lead substitute. 1ml per 1L. Designed for new sceaming 4 srokes to help extend valve life and I have heard from people who should know that it works a treat. When I am running ULP 98 in my old 2 strokes I add a bit as well, no problems .It says it replaces the lubricating effects of lead and cleans the entire fuel system- I am a bit dubious about the last statement, but hey it is made in Switzerland.The ingredient is n-Paraffine.
What is the report from those that have tried the VP fuel?
Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant is another good one.
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I really don't understand why anyone would take pump gas, add expensive and potentially dangerous chemicals to it in an attempt to make something that is crap to start with a good racing fuel. Seriously, 100LL is a good racing fuel that contains 2 grams of lead per US gallon. It's readily available, improves 4T valve life, resists detonation in hard running 2T's and yields excellent throttle response. It's inexpensive compared to race gas too. Unless you are getting gouged on the price, there isn't a good reason not to run it.
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what`s for sale again ??
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I really don't understand why anyone would take pump gas, add expensive and potentially dangerous chemicals to it in an attempt to make something that is crap to start with a good racing fuel. Seriously, 100LL is a good racing fuel that contains 2 grams of lead per US gallon. It's readily available, improves 4T valve life, resists detonation in hard running 2T's and yields excellent throttle response. It's inexpensive compared to race gas too. Unless you are getting gouged on the price, there isn't a good reason not to run it.
The reason not to run it, is because its really difficult to purchase for most of us.
Sniper edit:
The rest of this post is probably redundant waffle - I'd delete it if it hadn't taken so long to type out...
The short version is that Avgas is hard to buy, illegal to use in most circmstances, more expensive than the premium pump fuels, and not as good as the true race fuels.
Our civil authorities point-blank banned the on-road use of leaded fuel a few years ago (2002, IIRC).
Obviously this didn't worry people with race bikes/cars, as they weren't using them on the road, but the sellers of Avgas got very nervous about being fined (and its a big fine) for selling it to non-aviation people, so many of them began to refuse to sell it.
At about the same time, the motorsport bodies (CAMS for cars and MA for bikes) realised that mandating unleaded fuel was a good PR move ( ::) ) and banned the use of leaded fuels in modern race vehicles. In the case of CAMS, they also enforced the civil requirement for rally cars to use unleaded fuel (as they travel on public roads).
The other motivation, was to fall in line with international standards, so any local competitor who wished to compete at an international level, could do so with their "Australian spec" vehicle (this includes International events on Aussie soil, not just Aussie hopefuls travelling overseas).
So... You can only get Avgas if you own a plane, or you can prove that you are going to use it in a historic race car/bike. Even then, some airports are highly reluctant to sell it to non-plane owners, which is the last thing you need when you're on the way to a race meet.
They often also charge a significant premium to non-aviation buyers.
Further, the low-lead Avgas wasn't available in Australia last time I looked (and I'll admit to not looking lately due to the above hassles).
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Interesting, we have similar, but untrue, rumors floating around here in the states that it's illegal to sell avgas yet I can walk into any one of the 12 airports within 20 miles of me and fill my fuel jugs with 100LL avgas. Most of the stations are even self serve. I would suggest that if you really want to run a good leaded fuel like 100LL, make a trip down to your local municipal airport and talk to them about it first hand. Tell them that you are interested in purchasing it for your off road race bike and see what they have to say. It's worth the effort. I would be surprised if they would not sell it to you. Here in the states we have some of the strictest emissions standards in the world and it's still legal to sell 100LL to anyone as long as it isn't used in a road going vehicle.
I shopped around and found it for $1.13aus per liter at the cheapest airport near me. Reminds me that I'm almost out and need to make a race gas run!
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The airports are where the dramas begin.
I can't recall what MA does, but CAMS have a log book system for owners of historic vehicles. Some airport staff are highly dubious of even this, and will still refuse to sell to sell you avgas.
For better or for worse, Australia is far more heavily regulated than the USA, particularly when it comes to things like fuel and aviation. While some people live in areas (typically rural areas) where they're a lot more easy-going, the majority of us simply don't have easy, reliable access to avgas.
The choice to use fuels other than avgas, is not simply for a lack of trying.
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I guess I just wouldn't assume anything until you inquired directly about it at your local municipal airport/s. It's worth the effort if you are successful.
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MA used to use a log book. (They did last year). That means you had to have a log booked historic racer that is legally allowed to run avgas in the class it races. You show the dudes at your fuel supplier the log book and they sell you the avgas.
I have heard that this year, you only need to be a member of the club (in my case it was the PCRA) and you could buy avgas.