OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Honda => Topic started by: paul on October 09, 2009, 12:49:01 pm
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mugen-ME360-barrel-head-elsinore-JT-FOX-DG-CR250-1979_W0QQitemZ370271764578QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item5635eac062
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Second time around for that lot.... not like it is bolt on and ready to go. Man some of these things are just screaming out to buy them and then have the Chinese make 200 copies.
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If you have the piston can do much better than that for less than half the price.
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If you have the piston can do much better than that for less than half the price.
tell me more Lozza .... i notice the piston is missing from that auction
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Awesome Lozza, if you can get me a Mugen 360 cylinder and head for under $700 U.S., I'll order 5 off you now. Fantastic news.
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Send the donor cylinder and the piston
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Send the donor cylinder and the piston
Yeah right!! Used 360 Mugen cylinders are a dime a dozen.
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by the way gents - I have a used ME250 piston at home if anybody wants it for copying of cut outs etc etc etc?
cheers
Rossco
yes Magoo - it is the last little thing I have left of that horrible mistake I made of "giving" my Mugen away!!!!
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theres heaps of mugen 360 barrells around
i will go check the shed might have a few
john you should have a couple on hand ;D ;D ;)
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I have a 360 barrell, it ain't a Mugen though...... ;)
Cheers,
K
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Yeah right!! Used 360 Mugen cylinders are a dime a dozen.
Is a ME360 based on a CR 250 or not?
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The cylinder and head are a complete new casting with a different appearance, not just a resleeved 250.
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Wouldn't need a special casting. If someone can post a pic of the bottom of a 79 250 cylinder with some dimensions would tell me all I need to know.
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No need, it's been done
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Wouldn't need a special casting. If someone can post a pic of the bottom of a 79 250 cylinder with some dimensions would tell me all I need to know
Here we go again Loz....Nobody doubts that you would be able to build a 360 from a 250 Elsinore barrel, many others have. The point you seem to be missing is that no matter how good your cylinder is on the dyno or on the track, it will never be a Mugen. That's the whole point to this. The collectability of a part doesn't really have all that much to do with performance. It's about the aura that surrounds that parts place in motocross history. Your cylinder would undoubtedly produce the goods.....but as I said earlier, it ain't a Mugen.
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You're right Firko and like I said, it's been done before.
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I never claimed it would be Mugen, said could do far better with a CR cylinder for a lot less money. I'm emphasizing if you wanted a 360 and got one with more torque and a better spread of torque would you really worry about aura's and history etc etc.
I'm simply trying to help this is my point.
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Wouldn't need a special casting. If someone can post a pic of the bottom of a 79 250 cylinder with some dimensions would tell me all I need to know
Here we go again Loz....Nobody doubts that you would be able to build a 360 from a 250 Elsinore barrel, many others have. The point you seem to be missing is that no matter how good your cylinder is on the dyno or on the track, it will never be a Mugen. That's the whole point to this. The collectability of a part doesn't really have all that much to do with performance. It's about the aura that surrounds that parts place in motocross history. Your cylinder would undoubtedly produce the goods.....but as I said earlier, it ain't a Mugen.
No you can't build a 360 from a 250 barrel (not functional) .Anybody who has done a 360 conversion knows that you have to machine the cases out to accomadate the bigger diameter cylinder skirts.
A mugen is actually 353cc with a 83.5 mm piston. If you put that size piston in a 250 barrel you will have no skirts left on the barrel.Also the transfer ports would be reduced to about 1/2 volume.
A few companies in the US offer big bore kits for the 250's that get it up to 290cc .Thats about the limit.
One was done down here a few years ago that was also stroked that got it over 300cc but that was alot of $.
Also Firko and Maggo are right its missing the mugen porting ,extra finning etc.And its not a Mugen.
Not investment gains there!
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Whats so special about Mugen
if its so good, why is it , that the product is so hard to come by.
Was it sucessful , generally succesful products are readily available , or if they are real good they are copied ??? or reproduced in some form.`
or is it another one of these products shrouded in myth and smokey mirrors.
Do tell , lets hear some of the success enjoyed by the magic Mugen product.
Come guy's enlighten us on the this mythic product or is another beat up go fast product , never quite main stream product , EG Wheelsmith , just to extract an extra buck from the "punters".
Seems to be everthing is wheelsmith this and Mugen that.
If i fit a mugen barrel and piston kit etc. Does that make my bike a Mugen. A honda with an after market Mugen barrel kit perhaps , but nothing else.
There's got to be more to it than that , surely
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The Mugen 360 kit allowed Honda riders to ride the Open class in '78, 79 and 80.
Johnny O'mara won the 1980 125 USGP as a privateer on a Mugen bike.
They made power-up kits for Honda's through the 70's and 80's and the company was started by the son of the founder of Honda.
If you're a Honda fan Mugen stuff is as trick as it gets.. If you're not a Honda fan it means jack-shit.
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I don't recall too many sport shattering results (barring Johnny 0)from Mugen or Wheelsmith for that matter. With both the myth is bigger than their overall place in motocross history. However that myth has created a market and 'Wheelsmith this and Mugen that' the genuine stuff that is, has a strong collector market and cool factor and their place in history whether deserved or not. My point was that Lozzas 360 barrel would undoubtedly work better than a genuine Mugen barrel but it wouldn't have the cool, collectable 'aura' that the Mugen has.
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Thanks for that , guy's
So they are just upgrade kits , and not complete bikes.
Johnny O'mara was that good he probably would have won on a bicycle and that fit probably on foot , Im a grandstand admirer of the Honda product and actually own a couple and it still means jack shit to me just like my wheelsmith break lever and wheelsmith pipe etc , etc .
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That's right Firko, the Mugen stuff may or may not have been leaps and bounds better than standard but it was 'Trick' and seeing Mark Pace, Darryl Willoughby and Neville Cutts on complete Mugen bikes or Mugen kitted bikes that none of us could get or afford made them even more special.
Shoey they did make a complete Mugen bike with a different frame tank and engine kit but they were very expensive like Johnny O's water cooled 1980 125.
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Mugen actually did make complete bikes, 20 of them all up and yes, they were a substantial upgrade. One reason they were so rare is that back in the day they cost a fortune. They didn't just make 360 kits for 250s, but they made performane kits for every Honda CR from about 1976 to the late 80s. They still make performance kits but mainly for Honda cars where the rich little Asian kids spend real money.
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Thanks JohnnyO , for the info
A Full on Mugen would be really worth the freight.
But having said that , a bike with the upgrade kit is just that , a bike with an upgrade kit, not a genuine Mugen , even allowing for the price or overpriced upgrade kit.
Not worth that much more than than a very good standard unit.
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Gee, I wonder what's motivating your opinion Shoey. You're right, a complete Mugen bike is as rare as and you'll pay for it, but still not worth anywhere near the value of a genuine works bike.
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Do expand on your last comment Magoo
I for one would be interested .
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Hey Brent, I hate to argue, and yes you do have to mill the cases and drill the crank webs etc, but you CAN take a standard 250 R/RZ/RA cylinder to 360 (353cc), I know this for a fact. The head needs some machine work as well, and there are at least 2 options for pistons I know of. It's not a Mugen though.
Cheers,
K
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Hey Brent, I hate to argue, and yes you do have to mill the cases and drill the crank webs etc, but you CAN take a standard 250 R/RZ/RA cylinder to 360 (353cc), I know this for a fact. The head needs some machine work as well, and there are at least 2 options for pistons I know of. It's not a Mugen though.
Cheers,
K
Mick ,I thought that I might get a bite from you.Thats why I included the word functional.
I d like to see one on the track.The ones I knew of were using a slightly smaller than 83mm piston(oem)
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What was the result with the 360 you did Michael? worth the effort?
I rode Steve Sweeneys' 360 and it was awesome. It pulled from idle and had a real strong mid range. Brian from NZ rode it at the nationals and holeshot with it.
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I don't recall too many sport shattering results (barring Johnny 0)from Mugen or Wheelsmith for that matter. With both the myth is bigger than their overall place in motocross history. However that myth has created a market and 'Wheelsmith this and Mugen that' the genuine stuff that is, has a strong collector market and cool factor and their place in history whether deserved or not. My point was that Lozzas 360 barrel would undoubtedly work better than a genuine Mugen barrel but it wouldn't have the cool, collectable 'aura' that the Mugen has.
Beg to differ here Firko , Andre Malherbe was hot and won the last 3 GP'S in 79 on a 360 mugen - against the big works hondas.
Steve wise and Marty smith hhad some success - also remember that the mugen was short lived , soon after Honda had a bigbore production bike
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What was the result with the 360 you did Michael? worth the effort?
I rode Steve Sweeneys' 360 and it was awesome. It pulled from idle and had a real strong mid range. Brian from NZ rode it at the nationals and holeshot with it.
Theres a bit of difference between Mugens as well of course .Steves is a very nice well set up bike .Thats for sure .
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A nos mugen kit would have to set you back around the 4G mark, wouldn't you say?
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Steve Wise's CR125 Fox/Mugen bike was very trick and he finished first privateer in the '77 AMA Nationals and Marty Smiths '79 national bike apparently had a 360 Mugen engine so i guess Mugen had a bit off success in the US.
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Shoey - I had an ME250 Mugen kit - piston, barrel, head and pipe - I have never been a small boy and to use this 250 to finish 3rd in the 500cc class of a state round of grass track I think for me says it. yes there might be lots of mistique etc now but there stuff was used by Honda as works bikes for a period and it did deliver.
Rossco
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The engines together but hasn't been run yet. Can't see any reason why it won't be every bit as good as the Mugen kit. It will in fact be better, as it doesn't cost a squillion to do it.
Cheers,
K
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The engines together but hasn't been run yet. Can't see any reason why it won't be every bit as good as the Mugen kit. It will in fact be better, as it doesn't cost a squillion to do it.
Cheers,
K
Okay Mick , hope its a rocket .Just wondering how you managed it . I measured 81-82 mm for the OD on the cylinder skirt so with a 83 mm piston that would be gone.If you installed a liner then that would solve that issue but the thickness of the liner would compomise the transfers .
See you at Monza.
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A nos mugen kit would have to set you back around the 4G mark, wouldn't you say?
sellers market.... does that include the gearbox parts or just the top end/
Interestingly Pace was not exactly complementary about the 360. Still if you want it, want to build the trickest CR in the world, like a Wheelsmith Maico or similar then you pony up with the cash.
Would like one for my Foxy CR. Its about having the good stuff.
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Meanwhile back in Tokyo wheer there was no market for CR parts, Mugen was whacking out parts for XL250s, pipes, pistons and cams....for the KSI theme bike I have the pipe and the cam, and more importantly as any Civic R Type driver will tell you I have the window width decals. ;)
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A nos mugen kit would have to set you back around the 4G mark, wouldn't you say?
sellers market.... does that include the gearbox parts or just the top end/
Interestingly Pace was not exactly complementary about the 360. Still if you want it, want to build the trickest CR in the world, like a Wheelsmith Maico or similar then you pony up with the cash.
Would like one for my Foxy CR. Its about having the good stuff.
I sold my NOS kit , barrel,head,gears, piston and rings with a machined ready to go crank and cases for $4500 and I think I under sold it. :-\
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I mean $4500 bucks is still enough .... in these tough economic times. ;D
Remember when that kind of money would have bought you the bike as well.
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Im splitting hairs a bit, but Paces bike was a 390 mugen, not a kit bike. So it would be a bit of a different animal.
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I mean $4500 bucks is still enough .... in these tough economic times. ;D
Remember when that kind of money would have bought you the bike as well.
You are right but I sold my kit before last xmas when things didn't look as bad.
HaHa I don't need much reminding because thats exactly what I did.I took that money and bought a nice pre 85 250.It needed minimal work amd $ and I've finished every raceday on that bike with a trophy.But of course its not a Mugen. :-X
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Im splitting hairs a bit, but Paces bike was a 390 mugen, not a kit bike. So it would be a bit of a different animal.
Brad Im not sure but didnt Pace have a 360 kitted bike first and then got the 390 later (which was a stroked 360) ? Anyway he didnt like it/ one of them.
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I see mark pace occasionally and according to him it was a 360 Mugen and he didn't like it.. he said he preferred to ride the 250 whenever he could. I know there is a 390 getting around that was supposedly his bike but he doesn't seem to remember it.
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I see mark pace occasionally and according to him it was a 360 Mugen and he didn't like it.. he said he preferred to ride the 250 whenever he could. I know there is a 390 getting around that was supposedly his bike but he doesn't seem to remember it.
I am just going off what he said about the bike in VMX years ago. Guess a lot of people struggle with open class bikes. The story I heard was that even Leaskies bike in GPs was down to 400ccs.
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I have just finished my 1977 cr125 mugen, and the difference with the mugen kit is awesome, It was at the dirt track nats