Author Topic: Can of worms  (Read 1749 times)

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Offline piney

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Can of worms
« on: October 14, 2020, 08:07:15 PM »
 Just putting it out there, what's your thoughts on the prices of VMX bike's ATM, saw a KX5 sold for 17K
great news if you own 1

Offline cyclegod

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2020, 11:23:32 PM »
Same old story, what they "ask for" versus "what they get" for example

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LAVERDA-Mirage-1200-rare-and-nice-condition-PRICE-HEAVILY-REDUCED/203132539333?hash=item2f4ba491c5:g:DSQAAOSwPXVfM8Rk

In the current crisis is anyone going to spend that kind of money (even if they do have it) when there is this much economic uncertainty. It was the same
thing when the mining boom ended in W.A, when the GFC happened in 2008, prices adjust to meet the new economic reality but some people just don't get it that what they "think" it's worth in the boom time is not what consumers are "willing" to pay when times are tough.
Ban BLACK rims NOW

Offline Wasp

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2020, 03:43:52 PM »
My view on that is , that modified common bikes will drop a fair bit soon, due to less racing and smart people will rather pay off their mortgage or card before the actual brunt will hit us . BUT iconic , original rare bikes with history will be ideal to park idle funds for the wealthy. Bank interest is nearly zero , covid is a long way from over, stock market is way overpriced and due for another big downwards correction, Bitcoin is risky, cash might gone in the not so distant future. That could make a rare classic bike or car a perfect safe-haven.Classics don't attract capital gains tax and will retain a certain value , what ever the new way of transferring funds will be in a couple of years.My instinct tells me, bikes with metal tanks will be the surest bets. ;)
362 shocks , We don't just sell them - I designed and make them individually for you since 1989.

Offline skypig

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2020, 08:49:42 PM »
I think the current values are a very limited period in History.

I think bikes and cars that were “desirable” when guys (predominately) were between about 12 and 20 years old. When they couldn’t afford them are predominately the high priced vehicles now. When these “guys” are between 40 and 70 years old, they sometimes find themselves financially better off than they have ever been. Often with the family off their hands, and mortgage paid off. Suffering midlife crises they decide: “if I don’t own that Maico/Z900/Katana/Elsinore/Torana/Ford GT/ etc, etc now, I never will.” Or “I’d like to buy my first motorbike/car again” (Desperately “buying” their youth back?).

Like I’m not really interested in early ‘60’s or older bikes, most of the demand for the ‘70’s bikes/cars will likely reduce markedly over the next 20 years. (Or less).

For several reasons it’s unlikely that in 2070 50yo’s will be saying “I’m looking for a 2017 Hyundai. I30!”

Offline Butcher

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2020, 09:35:57 PM »
nothing will peel money out of a mans pocket like nostalgia......

Offline pokey

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2020, 07:07:01 PM »
Let the dog out of the car  and it runs around cocking its leg on everything  to make it his.  We see this and think how damn stupid but then go in the shed and do our personal touches to the cherry we just picked because we think thats how it should be and it s better and thats how  we did it back then.
 You havnt made it better you've just pissed on it and made it yours. People want what was in the dealer window in 1970 whatever's.
This is why NOS is expensive this is why Original is expensive as they dont make it anymore and never will. If you want an investment it must be period correct and or original or else you just lifting your leg and anyone can piss in the wind and expect it not to blow in their face...

Offline Wasp

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2020, 01:35:55 PM »
Good post Pokey  :D Now in everyone's opinion ,what bike model year, will always weather the storms and stand out as the one to own?
362 shocks , We don't just sell them - I designed and make them individually for you since 1989.

Offline Ted

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2020, 10:03:12 PM »
Without doubt the ( stock OME ) 1981 Maygo 490 will be the bike that will always realise good prices.
Not because it’s any good, it’s really quite bad, but because the hype around this bike is extraordinary.
81 YZ 465 H   77 RM 125 B

Offline skypig

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2020, 09:31:58 AM »
Good post Pokey  :D Now in everyone's opinion ,what bike model year, will always weather the storms and stand out as the one to own?

As I alluded to, I think it depends on the buyers “Vintage”.
For me:
Kawasaki 75 - first bike
‘73 XR75 - Bike I wanted, but never had.
First CR125 Elsinore - Bike I assumed I’d ride when I grew up.
Z900 - King of the road when I was an impressionable 10yo. (Again, I assumed I’d get one when I “grew up” - still waiting to “grow up”...Still waiting on a Z900...)

Offline Hoony

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2020, 05:28:20 PM »
EML Jumbo  ;)
Long time Honda Fan, but all bike nut in general, Big Bore 2 stroke fan.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJoKP6MawYI
1985 Honda CR500RF "Big Red"
1986 Honda CR250RG
2005 KTM 300EXC "The GruntMeister" ( I love that engine)

Offline pokey

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2020, 06:16:21 PM »
As time goes on the purpose for having the bikes changes.  reliving our memories by racing morphs into garage queens and investments. unless you turn your toes up and the kids just want to offload what they dont know about and dont care. The bikes may aswell be a vintage furniture item or art work and the same rules apply. Provenance. Was it owned by anyone special. what made it famous. How rare was it then and now and can you prove it..What made it special?

 Big bores factory rides from a Legend always a good bet. Specials like cheneys are a niche market.and attract a different collector. A solid original CR500 also a good deal as are oddball stuff like Rokons and Auto Huskies.
Then you have showroom 2 fiddies and 125s with forgotten 175s and 100s somewhere in the mix..
There are always exceptions like the ultra rare Tohatsu, RH67 suzuki  the namaguchi and such but as anyone who has been around old bikes will know condition and originality i is all and a OEM spec Green tank CR125 is more desirable as an investor than one with a Gem reed  works shocks and FMF pipe as we know how much time it takes to find good parts that havnt been "Personalised on"

Offline djr

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2020, 09:08:40 AM »
The prices I do not understand are the  Vincent , Brough Superior type stuff that sells for the same price as a small house .

I don't see nostalgia being a factor
- if you were a young man when these bikes were new , then you must be 90-100 years old now , and done with nostalgia { I would think }

are they just investments now ?

Offline Hoony

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2020, 01:28:55 PM »
The prices I do not understand are the  Vincent , Brough Superior type stuff that sells for the same price as a small house .

I don't see nostalgia being a factor
- if you were a young man when these bikes were new , then you must be 90-100 years old now , and done with nostalgia { I would think }

are they just investments now ?

i think that these machines like Vincent , Brough Superior have entered in the ICONIC model folklore stage (like mustangs, early porshe and ferrari's and Rolls Royce Phantoms) i don't understand what makes some things collectable and some not, its quiet strange.

i Own a 1985 CR500 and i don't think CR500's are worth the money they are being advertised as (be interesting to know if sellers are getting that sort of money, i suspect not)

Long time Honda Fan, but all bike nut in general, Big Bore 2 stroke fan.    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJoKP6MawYI
1985 Honda CR500RF "Big Red"
1986 Honda CR250RG
2005 KTM 300EXC "The GruntMeister" ( I love that engine)

Offline Wasp

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2020, 02:05:07 PM »
Exactly Hoony , I think that is what this thread is all about . Why are or will certain bikes of certain years and certain colors become iconic  and priceless and others not ?. There was a interesting Honda CX 500 turbo many years ago,around the same time as the now famous Z900 and nearly as quick.Many of them CX where sold, but not a great rarity today . I am intrigued by that certain model phenomenon .Is it a bit like the toilet roll horting craze  ? EG like the more we talk about something , everyone develops a longing for that model bike ?What is the fascination?  Good thread  and interesting to see what different people think or drives them .
362 shocks , We don't just sell them - I designed and make them individually for you since 1989.

Offline skypig

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2020, 07:20:56 PM »
Very interesting thoughts.

I think Hoony is correct about some vehicles now being “iconic”.
Many of them were rare and unaffordable (to most) when new - that’s one category.

At the other end of the spectrum you have things that at one stage you couldn’t give away, now commanding big bucks.

Z50’s, XR75’s, RD350LC’s (Seen the prices?!) YZ80C/D/E/F
Imagine trying to sell an RM125 A/B/C/N/T in 1981 when all the brands went water cooled/ single shock!
I guess most 1980 XL250s were just ridden into dust.

Offline Butcher

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2020, 06:26:57 PM »
when i was a boy growing up in the 70s and 80s i couldn't get rid of my xr75 fast enough cause i thought they were too slow. i traded on a cr250 79 model red devil. Then my mates had watercooled monoshock bikes. I also  had a hagon jap (which i couldn't ride properly) Sold it cause not enough valves. It's costing me a fortune to restore these bikes, who was to know they proved to be collectable ? Not even gunna mention cars.......   

Offline Nebo

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2020, 03:43:49 PM »
   How much is a VMX bike Worth?.
I have a Honda Dax. Did have XL250,RD350,RZ350. Do not wish i still had them. Brother has a JR80 and XR75.

I think you you have the put bikes in Categories.

Disassembled or Basket Case. You need to have a good look of what you buying it may be a good restro or scrap.
We have brought several Maico,s in a million bits when they were worth nothing. Turned out to be enough parts to all most build 3 complete bikes. Lucy enough to have the benefit of the high OZ Dollar some years ago to able to restore several Maico,s.

Ready to Race.  At what level ?. Club/Local may be. I remember one of the first VMX meetings in Victoria at Barrabool.
Some guys had spent a lot time and money others had dragged them out the shed after being there for years. And done little to them.
Half them were back on the ute or trailer before practice was over.

 Brought a 1970 250 square Barrel Maico for $800 almost 15 years ago. Slow, Clutch did not work well, this is normal.  But fun to ride.
Had silly idea of running at OZ VMX titles. Need more power,Radical port job needed,Pipe, Strong Wheels,Clutch that works, upgrade gearbox,suspension, etc, etc.
Over $3000.00 later and my nephew winning Several Oz titles on it . How much is it Worth?.  It is not for sale.


Same with 74 LTR 400GP Maico. My Brothers. Special Pipe, PVL Ing, Koni GP shocks,many Engine mods,Sun rims and Stainless spokes, etc, etc. This bike has Won several Oz Titles. How much is it worth?. It is not for sale.

Show Bike/100% Original/Full Restro . Is it a rare make and model?.  May look good on the outside . Whats its history?. What is on the inside?. Who built the engine?.
Show me the receipts for Parts and Labor. A new paint job and plastics can make a bike look good.
Many people have been ripped off from buying bikes and cars from the USA and are not what they are supposed to be.   Be careful.

 In conclusion some people will pay any price if they want it bad enough.
Old cars and bikes are like dirt they do not make it anymore.
And try buying a classic car cheap and restoring cheaply it.  Example a Porsche.
 







 

Offline djr

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2020, 09:41:57 AM »
Nebo , I like your categories , but would like to add one more

Overpriced & Overrated Vintage Bikes

Top of this category for me .................................................................... any pushrod CCM

Offline Wasp

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2020, 12:53:29 PM »


Top of this category for me .................................................................... any pushrod CCM
[/quote]

YES , thats one to own . They where special in their day and still special to this day . One that will never go down in price . Any other bikes like that ?
362 shocks , We don't just sell them - I designed and make them individually for you since 1989.

Offline Husky500evo

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2020, 03:51:28 PM »
For once , I tend to agree with Wasp . I think that any plastic tank on an old bike is a pain in the arse and detracts from the bikes value . Plastic fuel tanks are all going to deteriorate and split over time . I think that they are an extreme safety hazard on a vintage bike used for racing and I am surprised that the governing bodies haven’t stepped in and banned the use of plastic fuel tanks over a certain age . Imagine if your plastic tank splits while you are riding your bike and it only takes one spark and you are up in flames . I have had a shiny new looking refurbished plastic tank , that I accidentally dropped and it just shattered like glass into lots of pieces .
Bikes in unmolested OEM condition tend to be more collectable than modified bikes , so I am thinking that competitive race bikes that came out with a metal fuel tank , will ultimately hold their value better than plastic tanked bikes .

Offline Momus

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2020, 05:00:30 PM »
Nebo , I like your categories , but would like to add one more

Overpriced & Overrated Vintage Bikes

Top of this category for me .................................................................... any pushrod CCM

Spot on. Strange and folkloric the CCM.

They took the mid 70's Grand Prix title for the most unreliable bike in the field by a country kilometre while never winning a GP despite having at times riders more than equal to the job.

As to their value then and now do we have any numbers on what original 1977's have sold for here- or anywhere- recently?

According to my copy of Rolling Thunder, the 1977 580 3 speed sold for $1517 quid then in the UK or the equivalent of 7000 pounds today so about 13 grand AUD- though I would expect in todays dollars any landed here were going for 20K+ equivalent.

I think that by far the standout for metal tank 70's MX bikes would be the Honda CR125M.

It's a bit hard to compare pre AUD  float prices with today so American figures are probably meaningful.
.
In the US new CR125M's went for $745. Today prices obviously vary, but a good one in the US would fetch 5 or 6 grand. An unridden new one recently went for $17000 US.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 05:30:19 PM by Momus »
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Offline Butcher

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2020, 08:11:44 PM »
 in the book rolling thunder it tells of how many of these CCM's were made in each year. They were in limited numbers in their prime. Hard to know how much they are selling for  these days cause its rare they change hands. I for one hope they don't lose value cause  i have a vested interest in a couple of them. Nuthin sounds better than pommie 500s leaving the start gate........

Offline djr

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2020, 12:34:19 AM »
What do people think of the Yamaha HL500
These seem to be a good investment

Like the CCMs of the era - I dont think anyone ever won a championship anywhere with these , but they have a cult following , probably just for being different and a 4 stroke

The NVT production bikes seem the most expensive , even though a well built replica is often a better quality machine

Offline skypig

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Re: Can of worms
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2020, 10:15:36 AM »
What do people think of the Yamaha HL500
These seem to be a good investment

Like the CCMs of the era - I dont think anyone ever won a championship anywhere with these , but they have a cult following , probably just for being different and a 4 stroke

The NVT production bikes seem the most expensive , even though a well built replica is often a better quality machine

They were cool then, and are cool now. (Despite their limited competition success you mention.)
More in the “Iconic” class, than the “I had/wanted/watched” them when I was a kid.
A bit “specialised” (fetish?)

Personally, I’d rather a ‘73 CR (Same price/condition - I’d go the Honda.)