Noel: Fernando said I can't race the postie! :o

[crash n bern]

I thought VMX was about scouring the trading post chasing you childhood dream. Finding an old clunker and haggling a good price. Then scouring all the swap meets chasing the holy grail of the  parts you need for $10 a piece. Sitting in the shed at nights and bringing your dream to life. Then turning up at a meet to show your handiwork off, and check out everyone else's. Talk bikes and swap tech tips. Fire the old girl up and do a few laps, who cares who comes first or last. But it strikes me that it seems to be more a political shit fight about rules.

[Doc]

a search on Vern Grayson might answer your questions VMX247. Vern for want of a better adjective is another 'Legend' I can only hope to partially emulate in my later years 

nah crash n' burn..this is simply what we do when we're not riding..stir shit..happy little bunch of vegimites eh to be honest I don't recall of hearing many protests last year and come race day I'm far too worried about me and my bikes welfare to give a hoot what others are riding..

[Wombat]

Time for an intermission break; let's all look at the nice girlie and take a big breath before we return to this epic discussion.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Doc]

  looking looking!

damnation!! I can't quite read the number  :'(

here's another little vid..nor Ghost Rider..this is Phost Rider..simply senflippinsational! 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=m44NiI2X3B0&NR=1

[firko]

Jikov....I only use the word pedantic when describing my mate Nathan. I overused the word in this thread NOT because I was pissed off because Nathan disagreed with my opinion but because I thought it was a nit picky (that better?) argument he was putting up. GMCs eloquent reply backs that up. Most of Nathans worries about the problems with the rules are covered pretty well once you get into it. My reply while being down on detail was similar in content to GMCs. Remember I had misplaced my MA manual and was going purely off memory. Nathan and I  have had a few of these "discussions" and I reckon that as well as being a bit of a bun fight, it gets some good dialogue happening. I'm certain there will be other "discussions" between us in the future but I'm sure we will both share a beer or two in the Kevlar Kompound at CD5 with not a hint of disagreement. I may be a bit stubborm but I don't hold grudges and I'm sure that Nathan doesn't either. How boring would it be if we all agreed on everything. I reckon this thread's been a bit more interesting than a never ending discussion on Suzuki footpegs or Maico 490s.
 In the end I am a crotchety old fart who doesn't like losing arguments when I think I'm right. I get especially revved up when the rule book is blindly criticised without alternatives being offered up. We put a tough year of formulation into that book and I get pretty defensive of it. Having said that Nathan came back with some good suggestions to smarten it up. If he would have posted that first up before the critique, this argument most probably wouldn't have happened........

MX247. What do you mean by "old school"? .....Vern Grayson was a pre 65 competitor who built a Cheney Triumph in the mid 90s that was declared illegal for the class at the '95 Barrabool Nats. The machinations of the case are too long to repeat here but the reasons for the disqualification were that MA deemed his single downtube Cheney frame to be illegal claiming that Cheney didn't build a single downtube frame prior to 1965. Letters from Eric Cheney himself, Jim Holt from the Pre 65 Club in the UK and numerous other technical experts failed to convince the Classic Motocross Commission so Vern took the case all the way to the High Court and still lost. This case has more dodgy characters, liars, backstabbers and fair weather friends than an episode of Law and Order. Vern was dudded by blokes who themselves are noted cheats and troublemakers who had once claimed to be his friend. One day, when the libel statute of limitations expires I'll tell the real story. Many of you know it already but this forum isn't the place to name names. Vern Grayson is a good bloke who built a superb motorcycle, one of the prettiest and most competitive the class has ever seen, who was very grubbily treated. I was (and still am) disgusted with the way this case was handled from the Barrabool scrutinnering right through to the final appeal. It was MAs blackest hour in my opinion.
Jikov (again),  I made the tounge in cheek remark about Verns bike being able to pass scrutinnering these days with another owner partly in jest but guessing that todays scrutineers wouldn't be so pedantic(there's that word again) and would see the bike for what it is, a legit pre 65 bike. If Vern took the bike to a meeting and tried to do the same, old wounds would reopen and I'm sure he would be refused or punted into pre 70.

The whole eligibility thing is important to those who think it's important. If you just want to turn up and race without any dramas, more power to you. But if you are one of those blokes who love to take the rules to the nth degree, the eligibility criteria should be your instruction manual.

[GMC]

A lot of things get discussed here, & it’s a great place for it, but they are all just personnel opinions.

I think what may have irked a lot of people about the postie bike is that it insinuates that Vintage racing is nothing other than bucket racing and that you can race any old bucket in a similarly uncompetitive class.
I feel this way but I do tips me hat to anyone that can ride these things fast.

Is there a restriction on paint/plastic colours?
I’m glad then that this wasn’t one of your questions Nathan. These things may be asked by newbies but that doesn’t mean there has to be a rule for them.

Can I change my handlebars to a modern type?
Actually pre 65 components 18.7.3.1 lists - handlebars, all including alloy.
This is another case of “should be in the general section”
I came back from x,mas holidays & saw a similar thread & I was going to type up something about fixing the rules but never got around to it. I don’t think they need rewriting, just some paragraphs need to be shuffled around to make things clearer

While we’re at it I would like to clear up the riveted / bolted rear hub story too.

Never has a protest been lodged on the basis that rivets were replaced by bolts.

This story refers to the pre 65 CZ twinport which has a funny sort of one-piece sprocket / brake hub with a ¾ alloy hub riveted to it. By the late seventies they had the more conventional style hub with a normal style sprocket bolted on.
The bike in question at the Nats had the later hub in the earlier bike & this was the basis of the protest. Yes, it’still a very anal point as it clearly wasn’t performance enhancing but as the major part was from another era the protest was upheld.
The rider I believe was Boagy & he should have known better at a National but I don’t believe he was trying to cheat but simply swapped parts in order to keep a bike running.
He would be excused for taking his bat & ball & never returning but to his credit he copped it on the chin & still turns up with a tandem full of bikes & rides his tits off.

So ya  have a pre 75 bike,with new shocks (YSS sorry)and a new gmc frame (GMC sorry) and then the scrutineer lets ya though as a pre75....WTF.
I say who would want to be a scrutineer??? after reading this lot..

No offence taken 247 but the basis of the rules seems logical to me.
Ride any bike in its era & you have open slather with consumables such as shocks, ignitions, tyres, exhausts etc. & any replica part, be it frame or engine casing so long as it's a true replica.
Yes the book needs to be clear so the scrutineers know where thay stand.

[holeshot buddy]

call me stupid but i always thought scrutineers were to check bike for
safety items not eligability

so the rider knows if his bike is illegal in some way
then he may be protested by another competitor thats his problem

should have nothing to do with scrutineers 


signed stupid

[firko]

At the Nats and other open vintage meetings there is an eligibility steward, however the main onus is on the owner to prove his bike is legal if challenged. That proof may be anything from a magazine photograph, a letter from the maufacturer or anything that proves beyond question your bikes eligibility for a specific class. The eligibility stewards role is to make a decision on eligibility based on written proof and to offer opinion on specific eligibility.

[Nathan S]

Further to you PM, I couldn't let this one go by unremarked:

Maybe I don't get it, but I really believe Vintage MX is about getting an old bike, restoring it and racing it.

How does your Husky fit into that idea?

 

[firko]

mx247..By old school I thought you may have been thinking it was from waaaayyy back. No reaction on my part other than wondering what you meant. You may have overreacted you wannabe newbie wanker. 

[Freakshow]

Talking of newbie wanna be wankers , Were the fuc was i during this thread ?  

i passed it off many time never opening it, as the topic mentioned postie scooters 

and i didnt want to wast my time, little did i know of the ensuing verbal diarrhea ( theres that word again - bloody spell checker)  that this post would fill me with.   

For the last be it one hour i have laughed my guts up, frowned and then agreed to many of the posts.  Special mention goes to All things 414 for his well scribed post on page 5, that was funny as dude !

Come to mention it, my '08 Harobishi Banzai looks very Similar to Hakan Andersons '77 Works 360. I'm sure the Chinese were having a good look at motocross in those days and as mine doesn't have a compliance plate (the bike may be stolen, I did pick it up at Trash & Treasure), I reckon it could be a flow on from the '82 Hirochemo Crumple, a little known 65cc bike made popular by Phach Kit when he placed 85th in the 1982 World Overlocking Championships held in...........

anyway back to me......i hate to say it but some folk are defending the dead, some have no idea and others must be on drugs.

your honour in closing, my summation of this topic even though i missed out on all sordid commotion, the direction seems to be that the rule book needs love and some folk need to be educated on what is OK, I'm my humble opinion if it was raced in the world anywhere in 1975 and i could have brough it out here to race it was eligible then as much as now " FULL STOP", and yes that means disk brakes and special frames also, if someone sold em or could make me one back then based on the technology then, the process or skills then its in .... if its was made from new ideas, new products or resources not know then it should be OUT or it should be made to pass the group vote by current riders holding a national senior license.  how major components like programmable ignitions, gas shocks, emulators, any gearbox mods, reeds etc pass unchallenged confuses me , unless every one understands its a free for all and if its cool from 20 feet your okay on the day.  Other wise you need to sort out that rule book to ensure its period correct and that flow on stuff is a can O' worms.    if the book is to big you have a Historic register or addendum rule book which cover our classes thats not a hard thing to do.   IM still fighting with my local scrota who cant read a magazine, every race i pullout a article, a letter and other facts Leary showing among other thingsdisk brakes on a 1972 dirt tracker but because the rule book lays off the dirt derivative's he thinks it need to be a Rokon.  the book needs help.  remember some volenteers at the track are just that they are trying to help they arent all historic experts, to some it has bar ends, chain guard and no loose spokes anything else needs to be in the book.   AKA the stupid 96db rule that caught you all unawares 

but i love you all  -even you uptight old school freaks 

[Freakshow]

What class should I enter a Vespa 150 in ?

pre 75..  i had a factory paggio grass racer years ago, (should never have sold that be worth a mint now)   I shit you not that bike was actually a production racer and a bloody sexy unit. has big 10 inch nobblies, more  like the 67'  200cc sprints.

at one of the national scooter runs in marlo bout 85 ?  i set up a 150 super as a grass racer and it BANNISHED ALL BEFORE IT ON THE TRAILS was a hoot, it was the only bike to clear the bonfire at 12.01 pm on the saturday night TOO.   painted in full Fresian black and white 'the Cow' is still spoken of today amougnst the scooter community for its Jump over the fire.  ( infact i cleared it 3 times )  she now sits at the farm shed with the motor apart awaiting me to put in a new piston, i stupid let the old one rust up.

[Graeme M]

Nathan, 'restoring' in this context means to return to its original glory if that's your bag or making it good enough to race. In the case of the Husky, it was 'restored' in a sense cos it was built up from parts. So it still fits, and it is definitely a bike from the period in question and thus a superb example of the whole VMX philosophy. And it didn't even have disc brakes.

However, you are partly right. I did realise that and so got rid of it and now ride a TM125 and RM125, both of which are true examples of restored bikes from the era. The fact I couldn't ride the 500 for nuts has nothing to do with it...

[All Things 414]

We've passed noise emmissions. CD5 next......

[mboddy]

call me stupid but i always thought scrutineers were to check bike for
safety items not eligability

so the rider knows if his bike is illegal in some way
then he may be protested by another competitor thats his problem

should have nothing to do with scrutineers 

signed stupid

I have been a scrutineer for many years.
And for the past few years I have been involved in Historic Eligibility with PCRA.

The Scrutineer does not check your bike for safety.
He checks that it conforms to the rules in the MoMS.

It is up to you to prove that your bike is eligible.
You must have your proof with you at each race meeting.
If you are protested at a race meeting you need to use this proof to prove that your bike is eligible.
If you cannot prove it then the protest stands.

In Historic Road Racing you apply for a Historic Log book to assist you to prove that your bike is eligible.
You provide photos and details of the bike and details of all changes from the original specifications.
You send this to MA with your proof and if they are satisfied that it is eligible then they issue you the log book.
The log book is checked at each race meeting by the scrutineer who updates it with any further changes you have made to the bike.
You still need to bring your proof to the race meetings.

Prior to them bringing in the Historic Log Book I had my own 'Log Book' for each bike.
I'll be doing the same thing with my IT250. And I'll bring my proof with me to race meetings.

The rules must be tightened up to avoid the possibility of a farce at a Title meeting.
For example, they need to state that changes to Fork Internals (including Gold Valves and PD valves) are ok.
This is because at the Titles everyone at the front of the pack will be using them.
You do not want the Titles won by someone on a postie protesting the top placed finishers.