Author Topic: TS 185 engine  (Read 4241 times)

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Offline LWC82PE

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TS 185 engine
« on: August 02, 2007, 08:44:39 PM »
Is there any one out there really experienced with TS 185 ER engines? ive got a noise in mine that im sure is comming from the gearbox input shaft. at low revs/idle. when riding the bike or rolling on the throttle it goes away and when i pull the clutch in it goes away.originally i thught it was backlash in the gears but i dont think its that now. i fully rebuilt it with new bearings and everything and now ive had to pull the bloody thing apart again. it seems to be some thing like the input shaft endfloat. i can not see what is wrong as ive got all the correct shims in right and havent removed and replaced the pressed on 2nd gear cog on the end of the shaft. i used a new SKF bearing and on the clutch end and and have pressed in the kickstart drive gear that gos inside that bearing all the way as the the original one did. i cant see that the afermarket bearing can be that much different. its annoying me!

any one else experiacnced this with their 185?

Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

Doc

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2007, 03:50:51 PM »
Leith, I'd say this is clutch rattle and quite normal in anything but a brand new engine which run closer tolerances in all departments (until everythings beds in). Closer tolerances mean more friction, more friction more heat, more heat less power bla bla bla..A silent motor does not mean a good motor. It goes away when you pull in the clutch or as the revs rise, this is standard for said clutch transmission rattle. It may be caused by engine pulses through the needle throwout bearing, the clutch inner sleeve (or in some cases bearing) or it may even be from the clutch dampers or slight back lash in the primary gears or actual tranny. It's rarely anything to bother about. A very slow idle will only enhance this rattling. I plan on building up one of the ER dungers I have so I'll let you know soon if it's par for the course.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 03:58:56 PM by Doc »

Offline Lozza

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2007, 05:23:48 PM »
Just rev it heaps so it drowns out the noise. ::)

As a poor attempt at a hijack is the TS 185 a 6V system and the 250 a 12V.Just looking for a rectifier/regulator has to be 2 phase (4 wires) 400's have them,wondering do the 185/250
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline suzuki 400

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2007, 12:26:56 AM »
Leith my pe250 after a rebuild with skf bearings also has the rattle on idle that goes away after the clutch is pulled in i think  it may be in the clutch,it,s a good old rattle too ,i dont know i can do much about it but i will throw some new bearings at the clutch se what happens  :-\but i can live with it (had new clutch plates installed to ) cheeers Rod (banger)

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2007, 02:35:34 PM »
no Lozza, they are both 6 volt. i have made both of mine 12 volt though. is a universal single phase reg/rect what your after? they are pretty easy to come by. try Electrex or Sparx or Tympanium. you can find them on ebay/web. try ebay sellers (stator sis) or ( RMstator) or search for ricky stators website. also Steve at Betta bikes can help or even i can get you one from a supplier in NZ. I Think a DT 200 has a 4 wire reg/rect
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2007, 02:39:32 PM »
with the noise im just going to have to have a good hard look at the input shaft endfloat. its a metallic sound so i dont think it could be insde the clutch basket with the worn rubbers. i have got movement in there by moving it by hand but i dont think its whats giving me the noise. i also thought the engine may of been seizing but cant see any evidence of seizing so i want to sort this noise out first then see if i have another problem
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

Offline Lozza

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2007, 08:09:33 AM »
Leith,
found these on fleabay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-ATV-HONDA-KAZUMA-REDCAT-50CC-90CC-12V_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43976QQihZ005QQitemZ150126988533

They have a good supply of stators and rotors.No more whinging about no spark
Jesus only loves two strokes

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2007, 08:46:49 PM »
can i ask what your using it for? i notice they say its for small 50c-90cc bikes. it wouldnt be able to handle that much power.
maybe something like this is more suitable? http://www.sparxelectrical.com/Single_Phase_Regulator_Rectifier.htm these are a good unit.

or this place will have one. http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/index.php?ch=rectifierregulators . there is also a couple ebay stores who sell them. the stator sis store is closed till the 13th but they normally list the universal ones.

am going to look at my 185 motor tomorrow and see if i can fix it
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2007, 03:30:56 PM »
I have had another look at my motor but still can not find anything obviously wrong.
I did forget to mention that occasionally after about 10/15mins of riding, when de-accelerating and coming to an intersection it would sometimes make the same rattly noise. It doesn’t make the noise when accelerating or under load, only sometimes when slowing down and intermittently at idle/lov revs. It seems sensitive to revs because I can blip the throttle a bit and it will settle down for a few minutes and then all of a sudden the noise appears by itself when its in neutral and then as soon as the clutch is pulled in it stops, then let the clutch out and its back and I can pull the clutch lever in and out and turn the noise on or off as if it was a switch.

The last time I rode the bike before the rebuild was in September 03 and it had a noisy top end but im pretty sure it didn’t have this new noise I cant suss out. It may be possible it was there but I couldn’t hear it because of the rattly piston but I doubt it. Back then I was using Penrite 2 stroke gear oil for jap bikes. Back 3 weeks ago when I had it rebuilt I just had some Mobil 2 stroke gear oil in it until I was going to order some good Belray gear oil. I know the recommended gear oil is ment to be an engine oil but I don’t think it would make too much difference.

The next thing ive looked at is if the left hand side needle roller bearing for the lay shaft was inserted to far. I cant remember if I re-newed it but anyway I found out that it doesn’t affect the layshaft end float anyway as there is a thrust washer against the 2nd gear cog that rests against the cases and the bearing end is not closed off. The reason im thinking it could be layshaft endfloat is because when after bolting the cluch basket on and doing up the clutch center drum nut I could still grab hold of the clutch center hub and could get it to move in and out and make a noise.

The right hand layshaft bearing was a SKF and is driffted in all the way and ive got the kickstart gear pressed into it all the way like original. I cant imagine the SKF bearing is totally out of wack and not as good as a genuine bearing which would be a Koyo probably.

I measured my laysaft cluster from the surface of 2nd gear to the surface of the 1st gear which is actually machined onto the layshaft. My specs say 78mm +/- a little bit and  right on about 78mm was what I have, which it should have been because I haven’t removed and refitted the 2nd gear which is pressed on.

Up against the fist gear pinion which is part of the layshaft there is a combination of thrust washers and thrust needle roller bearing. This is where im not sure. I have several manuals inc a factory manual and they don’t all agree which each other on the order and don’t match up the same with the parts book on alpha-sports. There are 2 washers the same size and one larger OD one. According to the parts book for 1980 they show 2 washers the same part number with the thrust needle roller bearing in between and no larger third washer. My Haynes and factory manuals show 3 washers. I don’t know if the parts book is right and maybe they have used the diagram for the B/C 185 which in my B/C factory manual only shows 2 washers. I 2 smaller washers and one larger one and I know the history of the bike and know its had them since new. I also don’t know if the way ive been putting the washers on is correct.
Does the one large one go on first then a small one, then the bearing then the other small one? Or do the 2 small ones go on first then the bearing then the larger washer? Which is what one manual says.
So that is one area I am not sure on, but when I first put it together I thought it was right.
After these washers and thrust bearing there is a needle roller bearing split in 2 halfs and that goes inside the kickstart gear. There is a right and wrong way for this bearing to go on and im aware of this.

Ive got all new clutch plates and new heavy duty springs but once again I can see these causing a problem.

At the moment I don’t know what to do. Im searching for answers. I think my first option is to replace the left side thrust washer against 2nd gear, the 3 thrust washers and needle thrust bearing against 1st gear and also replace the split 2 halves needle roller bearing. And then reasseamble it once I know what is the right way to put those 3 thrust washers back on. I cant see any evidence of a big end or main bearing seizure so I don’t think my motor had seized. I was getting worried though and fitted a bigger main jet. I have used the OEM left side main bearing with shield but used a SKF main bearing on the right side. Its just a normal 6205 or something. Should the right side main bearing only be OEM? Does the OEM right side main bearing have a C3 tolerance and should I only use a OEM bearing here? I cant see its casing any problems but if it’s a definite no no then I will change it now while its apart. I know for an Adler motor I just did it was recommended to put C3 main bearings in that but that was a twin with a bolt together crank shaft in 2 pieces. Has anyone else just used off the shelf non OEM main bearings in jap 2 stokes with no issues?

How far off are you from getting your 185 motor together Doc? I would really like to be able to compare mine with yours and know how your layshaft assembly and clutch goes together. Maybe I can wait for a bit until you can pull a 185 engine apart or get one back together.

If I still have the noise once fitting these few minor bits and maybe trying a heavier oil I think my next step is to replace the whole clutch basket with a new one which I think is about $80-$100 because mine has got some internal movement in the rubbers. After that I don’t know, throw the bike in the bin?, I hope not because ive spent a lot on it and just want a simple noise that I believe is not normal and not ment to be there to go away.

Any suggestions are welcome especially in regard to the correct order of fitting the washers/thrust bearing on the right side of the layshaft against first gear as I now do not know what manual/parts diagram to believe.
Thanks
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022

Doc

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2007, 10:58:12 AM »
I'll get to the 185 asap but initially you mentioned this noise is at extra low revs and goes away when the revs rise or the clutch is pulled in. Classic description of clutch rattle. You also mentioned you removed the the left crank bearing shield. If you didn't replace the oil slinger/shield with a 0.80mm thrust washer then it's you'll have picked up more crank endfloat which will also cause transmission noises, especially at low revs. Again pulling in the clutch may also make the noise subside as it smoothes the engine pulses transmitting them through the now un-engaged clutch. Before spending big dollars on a new clutch basket why not simply slot on another and see it the noise is the same or different or worse. Compare the baskets before fitting and maybe it'll be more obvious if wear is the culprit. Back and forth hub lash is not so worrying as lateral which indicate loose rivets or worse. Gotta remember dirt bike clutches cop a flogging and are usually very neglected so there 'will' be wear to some degree.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 11:05:47 AM by Doc »

Offline LWC82PE

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Re: TS 185 engine
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2007, 08:01:02 PM »
no the left side main bearing has got the sheild in it for oil injection, its genuine suzuki and thats why i only went oem for that bearing. its the right hand side i used aftermarket cos i thought it should be ok as its just a noramal bearing. with the clutch basket i think its a waste of money to get from a wrecker beacuase they will just charge me $60 or $70 anyway if im lucky plus post so its just better just to go new since they are only about $80 or $100. tomorrow im going to ring a dealer and see if i can find out a few things from their micro fiche. when you get to it can you take note of the order of washers etc against 1st gear on the layshaft when you pull it apart if you havent pulled the motor apart yet. thanks. im just trying to finish this bike so i can ride it and start doing more on my PE's
Wanted - 1978 TS185 frame or frame&motor. Frame # TS1852-24007 up to TS1852-39022