OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Suzuki => Topic started by: Curly3 on July 13, 2011, 05:33:50 PM
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I've got a late 60's T20 stashed away that I'm planning to build into a pre70/75 Dirt Tracker.
I haven't got any photo's to post yet but I will soon.
I'll also be after help from you guy's with suggestions on period correct parts such as, forks, wheels, swingarm, tank, seat & guards, using the standard frame.
I'm open to all suggestions, maybe some of you gentlemen may even have some gear you'd like to off load, at a resonable price of course.
Cheers, Steve
P.S. All the non bike talk going on recently has prompted me to put this up sooner rather than later.
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(http://i53.tinypic.com/2zpt53d.jpg)
(http://i53.tinypic.com/25f65w3.jpg)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/33yqplz.jpg)
Stage 1 complete, exhumation from over 20 years in storage.
Here she is, I'm planning to sell off all the road tackle to help fund the project.
I'm priviliged to have our own Mr Yamaico for tech expertise, this will be a rocket Pre70 250 Dirty Tracker.
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bump
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(http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad275/albrid3/nov1963-yamahaascot1.jpg)
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If you're wondering about the slow start, that would be my fault. I'm still stuck in Indonesia, but will be giving Steve a hand as soon as I get back.
That Yamaha sure is slick Wallie.
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I owned a YDS2 and I wanted to build the same bike, but I got talked out of it, I would like it back so that I could go with my own thoughts on building this machine again. yes it is a nice bike.
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Even prettier in colour (http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/icons/ATT1.gif)
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/YDS5/YamAscotScrambler1963.jpg)
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I reckon this'll be a great project Steve. Pete's pretty clever so I reckon I might have to perk up my own pre 70 dirt trackers to compete with this thing (he and I are co producing an online project dirt tracker next, after the current el Cheapo is done) Are you going to 'twingle' the engine Steve? A mate built a T20 Hustler road racer many years ago and even though the motor was fairly standard except for carbs, pipes and ignition, it flew.
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Getting enough hp for this beast will be easy Mark - getting enough useable hp in the right spot so that it can hook up will be the challenge, I think.
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The slow progress is not up to you Pete, I've been dealing with a few personal drama's and struggling a bit for motivation.
At this stage the bike is half stripped down and the engine is sitting on the bench in its cradle ready to to be rebuilt & reworked, how hard would it be to " Twingle " it ?
I've got a complete Betor front end with 21" wheel ready to fit and I'm going to fab a longer swingarm with adjustable shock mounts and with a little help from Pete I'll fab the pipes myself.
The YDS2 looks cool and I'm tossing up between a similar tank, seat & guard or going for fibregass Flattrack style.
Thanks for your interest gents.
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just to let you know steve i will be building a pre 70 dirt track bike a 1969 montesa gp5 250 kenny roberts rep
its on the way from good old usa as i type
jim
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Bring it on Jim ;D
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(https://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1p0Pbpu2pr0R7PPSykMn_6dSrwxKpTNus5Jny8UKCIBN1_q2gfXlmN7zaayq8Fw1BZcJ37r-XKqUhF87JLQepKkQ/Suzuki%20factory%20250%20twin%20MX.jpg?psid=1)
(https://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pSOgVhj1NySUVTDJqMdcc8xZ5tcW4_b9u3_AA5-kiegy8W4omOicFf_6TYxjedEiDwg7fhmb-YznH4c_5N7NDlw/T20%20mx%20001.jpg?psid=1)
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go easy on the adjustable mounts on the swingarm if you making it yourself. Keep thinking pre 70.
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Mark probably has a Monster swingarm in his "un usual" swingarm collection....lol
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Hey , Steve
Just remembering that Alan Hill, # 515, replaced a blown up Maico engine in his chookie dirt tracker with a Suzie Hustler 250 motor in the early seventies, bloody thing flew , gettin' drive was the issue, forget how he solved it, but it was bloody fast around Nepean and Griffith. Following your build with interest.
Foss
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Hey Steve,
You probably should fit the front end and mock the whole thing up with as many of the parts that you are going to use as possible. Sit it on the wheels and then measure the head angle and pull it back accordingly. Once this is done check the front/rear bias. From memory those T20's are pretty long in the wheelbase, so you may even find that you don't need to lengthen the swinging arm - may even need to take a bit out. You have to get that power to the ground. ;D
Pete.
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How's this Trackmaster for a bit of inspiration Steve? I know it's a Suzuki 500 but it'll give you a bit of an idea of how it'd look in flat track trim.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/rackmaster%20Suzuki.jpg)
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As I was reading your post Steve I was thinking 'you'll need to lengthen the swinging arm' 'cos my mind-set is that they were a bit short and twitchy, plus maybe shorten the rake and trail a bit.
There's no doubt it will be a rocket, they were an amazing performer!
Have you seen the video on this forum somewhere showing the dirt track modded YDS2 going around I think it was Santa Catalina or somewhere?
Great stuff.
I had a YDS2 on the road about '66 I think , it was a fun bike.
cheers pancho.
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This is on flattrack.com this morning.
Suzuki X6 Hustler 3 Days, 9 Hours ago
It has what we believe is a Champion frame or very close to it. good motor, good compression, expansion chambers, fiberglass seat and tank. evrything is there, Currentl disassembled. Have pictures. Need to sell, caught myself looking at it and thinking of racing it and no good can come from that.
make me an offer.
Jimmy Martin drtracr@aol.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
205-629-6638
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(http://i56.tinypic.com/152npzs.jpg)
A restored version Fiko, looks cool.
There are no images of a 250 twin Suzuki from around era but apparently they were very popular.
Hey Pete, reckon our pipes will look that good? :P
P.S. Thanks Firko, our old mate Jim has already alerted me to that bike, distance & budget constraints put the kybosh on it.
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(http://i51.tinypic.com/2ivzkf7.jpg)
For anyone who hasn't seen this one before.
My favourite alltime T20 with my favourite alltime rider.
And Curly of course.
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Hey Pete, reckon our pipes will look that good? :P
Hey Steve,
Those pipes are straight, they've got no style, and you know the Kevlar credo - "it's all about style" - Our's will have ;D
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http://www.vft.org/RouitMuseum/Gallery/073_TrackmasterSuzuki55.jpg
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http://www.vft.org/RouitMuseum/Gallery/073_TrackmasterSuzuki55.jpg
Scaling roughly off that picture the wheelbase is 54", which would be about right.
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(http://i53.tinypic.com/2yl31v4.jpg)
Cheers Noel, obviously I didn't look hard enough, Inspiration.
Standard T20 frame, Rake ( Castor ) 63deg, Trail 83mm and wheelbase 1280mm.
Recommended wheelbase for a Flattracker 1375 - 1425mm, Rake & Trail ?
Come to think of it you're right about those staino pipes Pete, I'll have one either side because we change direction and more upswept at the rear.
Thanks for re energising my enthusiasm fella's.
Very observant Pete, 54inch = 1375mm approx.
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steve
it has to be ready by the charity day next year for the shake down befor dt nats in early oct in canberra
will have 250 ready by then for sure
jim
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(http://i53.tinypic.com/309pruw.jpg)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/28vbwk6.jpg)
This is about all I've got for the momment.
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This'll be a sweet project Steve but I reckon it's a bit of a shame to cut up such a nice, unmolested bike.
I wonder if the motor could be squeezed into a TM/TS 400 frame...if so, it might make a better chassis choice and save yours from the axe....just a thought. ;)
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Oh don't start me thinking again Firko, that's been one of my big problems lately, over analizing and procrastination.
I've had brother Carlos in my ear as well about different options and I started to confuse myself.
The die's been set, mainly because I don't have to source much for it and if anything it'll be different.
I do appreciate the input though and I have no doubt that by the end of the project there'll be heaps of coulda, woulda & shoulda's.
I think I'm gunna go for the alloy rear guard style but not sure about the Dickie seat.
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Steve....could you measure your engine's total length for me please? If on the long chance it's capable of fitting in a PRE '70 TS250 frame I'll donate one to the cause and we can rake it at the same time as Pete does our TM/TS project bike frame.I suggest The TS frame as it's already in the ballpark in wheelbase and geometry, needing only a 26degree rake adjustment. Aftermarket bodywork and/or proper dirt bike bodywork fits and proper dirt wheels and forks are already there. I think I can also donate a pair of wheels to suit if needed. If, for some reason the engine doesn't fit the TS frame I can donate yet another, more exotic frame that might also fit the bill but....first things first. PM me the overall dimensions of the engine and I'll see what it fits.
......just another thought ;)
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I think Mark is going to wear you down in the end Steve. Pretty good offer - sounds like a good plan to me.
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Overall length = 440mm and height = 380mm.
I'm thinking again, if I go down this line I should probably look for another engine because it'll be a shame to split up the matching no's of this bike.
My head hurts again. :-\
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Steve....revert to original plan my friend ;D. The TS 250 frame cradle measures only 400mm in length, the DT1 380mm and my choice for a plan B, the American Eagle/Sprite frame I've got kicking around only measure 400mm or so. I'm guessing the TM/TS 400 frame would accept the T20 motor lengthwise but unfortunately it doesn't fit into pre '70. Sorry mate, I guess it was a good idea at the time ::).
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Go with plan A, its just another bike, just ride it as it is, if you place 2nd at the NAts in your class then you can go about tweeking the frame. Get it on the track first, Ride have fun, then get all Fussy if it amounts to anything. Otherwise its going to shit in your shed for another 20 years with the best of intentions and a lot of spiders.....
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Go with plan A, its just another bike, just ride it as it is, if you place 2nd at the NAts in your class then you can go about tweeking the frame. Get it on the track first, Ride have fun, then get all Fussy if it amounts to anything. Otherwise its going to shit in your shed for another 20 years with the best of intentions and a lot of spiders.....
We'll be looking at first place here Kerry ;D
Looks like plan A Steve. Had a look at the frame photos again and it will be a piece of cake to de-rake it. The motor is the same bore x stroke as a CR125, so we'll spec the motor, pipes and carbies that way. Throw in some head mods and I don't think you'll have any problems seeing close to 40 useable hp.
We don't want this, as Freaky would say, shitting in the shed for another 20 years.
Pete
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How hard would it be to twingle the T20 Pete? I seem to recall Frank doing it to some twin or other a couple of years ago.
Remember also chaps that my bikes will be in the same pre 70 division so let's not make it too bloody fast...OK? ;D
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Whats a twingle, and why would you do it?
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Whats a twingle, and why would you do it?
It's like a savoury pretzle. Flattrackers have been using them as a fuel additive for years
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Hey Slidez I
more than happy to help out with paint if you wannna look as good as its gonna go.
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To twingle an engine is to rephase the 180 degree crankshaft to allow both cylinders to fire at the same time every revolution, essentially turning the egine into two singles...a 'twingle'. It was common to see Suzuki T20's and other 180 degree twin's crankshafts rephased to fire both cylinders at the same time in USA flat track back in the day. When he was experimenting with 2 stroke Suzukis on the dirt track, master tuner Erv Kanemoto created "tringle" three banger on his Suzuki triple tracker as well as 'twingling his T20 and T500 twins.
Below: Erv Kanemoto's three cylinder Tringle
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/triple.jpg)
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How hard would it be to twingle the T20 Pete? I seem to recall Frank doing it to some twin or other a couple of years ago.
Remember also chaps that my bikes will be in the same pre 70 division so let's not make it too bloody fast...OK? ;D
Quite common on four stroke twins, but I'm not sure about a parallel two stroke Mark. I don't know how the crank goes together on a T20, and the right balance factor would have to be calculated and implemented. It's the big bang theory and significantly changes the characteristics of the engine, whether for better or worse would remain to be seen. Probably worth just trying it in stock configuration and getting it to handle and see how it hooks up. Food for thought, though.
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T500s for sidecar x and speedway outfits were modded that way(twingled) to give better drive and it is definately the way to go or you wont get that 40hp to the track. You will find the back end will keep wanting to come past you-at the end of the straight when you least expect it.
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To twingle an engine is to rephase the 180 degree crankshaft to allow both cylinders to fire at the same time every revolution, essentially turning the egine into two singles...a 'twingle'. It was common to see Suzuki T20's and other 180 degree twin's crankshafts rephased to fire both cylinders at the same time in USA flat track back in the day. When he was experimenting with 2 stroke Suzukis on the dirt track, master tuner Erv Kanemoto created "tringle" three banger on his Suzuki triple tracker as well as 'twingling his T20 and T500 twins.
Below: Erv Kanemoto's three cylinder Tringle
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/triple.jpg)
You posted as I was posting Mark. From your post it would appear that it is quite doable. If the T20 has a splined crank with an even number of splines then it would be no problem. The only thing to consider is the difference between flat track and short circuit, with our version being more stop go and hard braking and accelerating. It's probably worth a try as an experiment,
Pete.
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I remember reading a very interesting article on the 'net about Kanemotos experiments with twingling his engines, especially the T20 and later the T500. Apparently both were fast and got the power down really well. The problem with the triple was finding a sympathetic balance factor and starting the thing. I'm going over to the Grand Poobahs place on Tuesday Pete so I'll get in his ear and see what he knows about this twingling black art ;).
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I remember reading a very interesting article on the 'net about Kanemotos experiments with twingling his engines, especially the T20 and later the T500. Apparently both were fast and got the power down really well. The problem with the triple was finding a sympathetic balance factor and starting the thing. I'm going over to the Grand Poobahs place on Tuesday Pete so I'll get in his ear and see what he knows about this twingling black art ;).
Sounds like a plan Mark. Are we going to let Steve in on any of this? Nah, we'll just go ahead and do it. ;D ;D
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Matt Maloney is a young Guru in this department with the XS650 motors. His tag is 270 and he lives at Morasnbah at the moment though his dad is from Vic. Very knowledgable about ins and outs of single-twins.
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How about a 270 degree twin ;).
((http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/icons/ops.gif) I should have read page four before sticking my bib in)
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Short circuit Guys here with T500 OUTFITS reckon they get off the line a pooftenth quicker, but not noticible any where else around the track, and some have even gone back to normal on the next rebuild.
Stick with plan A, get it on the track and tinker later.
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PS. when you find one of them rear guards to suit an 19" rear full length can you popint me in the right dirrection ans i need one for my stalled trackmaster DT1.....
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Okay plan A it is, now to sort out Plan A, subsection B, to Twingle or not.
I'll make that decision when the engine's stripped and Pete's had a good look.
On the look out for a decent pre70 tank, pref - alloy or something off an early TS.
And an 18" rear wheel complete with backing plate and an alloy rim, dirt catcher preffered to match the front.
Would this bike be eligible to be ridden ( not by me ) in the Super Senior class?
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Would this bike be eligible to be ridden ( not by me ) in the Super Senior class?
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I see a small problem here-not so much the eligibility but with the rider.
The more senior a rider gets the more sense they attain (usually) and therefore a "super" senior should have copious ammounts of the above. However, there are always exceptions to every rule, so you might just find your guy-somewhere....... :D :D
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Believe me, I have someone in mind and he did raise an eyebrow, just.
Or I might even ride for another 19 years so I'll be eligible, I did have 30 years off.
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Steering head bearings, 48 OD X 20 ID, are these common sizes?
Lazy I know.
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Had a quick look on wemoto & closest they list by size is 48x25x13
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Cheers Tony, I'll check them out, should be easier to make an internal spacer than an outer.
The closest I could find was 47 OD & 20 ID.
P.S. I just found a 42mm OD bearing, that's probably gunna be the one.
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Any pre 75 model bike is able to be ridden in super senior, buy a senior - over 70 YO ( or anyone else in the appropriate age group. ) if you like i can ride it for you in the 40-49 group - looking for extra ride at canberrs DT
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Dont twingle just yet. I have a tank and rear wheel and both cups/ bearings but used, not usre what else i have but ill post it in your wanted section
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Here you go Steve.......theyre popping up everywhere. This is pretty cheap considering it's got an aftermarket frame.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-T20-Vintage-Flat-Track-Suzuki-X-6-Hustler-/180741934652?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item2a150f0e3c (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-T20-Vintage-Flat-Track-Suzuki-X-6-Hustler-/180741934652?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item2a150f0e3c)
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That looks like a fun machine!
I guess it would take a while to work out which gears to skip at Nepean.
cheers.
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Firko, I think that's the same one that you & Jim sent me photo's of before only assembled, Jim sent me a photo of it assembled as well.
I'd snap it up if it was in OZ but I'm aiming for the Canberra titles next year and already started on mine.
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Here's my friend Gus Preim's twingled T20 from back in the day. Gus is one of those twisted genius's that knows this stuff like the back of his hand.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/twinglesuzuki.jpg)
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Hey Firko, was Gus that guy with the immaculate Royal Enfield trials bike at the Klub Kevlar show & shine a few years back?
I think it was Royal Enfield.
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Looks classy in the black
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That's the guy Steve. He also built the unbelivable Adler motocross replica featured in VMX #37
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(http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/261276_2004209379621_1075211163_31832572_4854434_n.jpg)
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I don't think that's a T20 Freaky, for a start it's a triple, could be a Mac III Kawa.
You'd def get to turn one first but not much after that.
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YEp it a a quacker triple, just thought it was a cool foto.