Cheney TM 400

[firko]

Oh...You mean the new owner is going to find that his bike is ilegal?  I guess I can see why it's all so secret now.

[BJJ]

siding with Lozza,  as a reason to buy/bid

[BJJ]

Heck,  now I am even interested myself.  Where is the valium?   

[Tim754]

Yep I am for the stock TM400 motor in the Cheney, Sort of knowing it is going to hurt horrible real soon, but doing it in sublime style.

[VMX247]

This is true oldschool,
some may also say "what of the hybrids, is it not the same"?

[pokey]

Rules is rules ladies and gentlemen. if the engine appears to be as it came from the factory on the outside then its legal.


maybe a new class could be investigated  for OEM bikes only. No PVL No aftermarket shocks no trick bits at all.


 I like the cheney TM and atleast its ridable with a decent frame and  the engine mods just have to make it less suprise suprise heres the power band.

[firko]

Pokey, you're right but programmable ignition and that plug ugly pipe take it way past the moral objectives of our sport. Bikes like Cozzies lovely Cheney need to be preserved as they were intended, not polluted by modern additions. Some people just don't understand what the vintage movement is about and never will.

This adds fuel to the argument that the rulebook does indeed need some revision. Perhaps the AHRMA pipe rules about no tapered headers and fat centre sections should be included. I'm just as guilty as I have a computer designed modern pipe on my Maico. At least mine is deliberately designed to hide the fat section up under the frame so it can't be seen. If the rules changed I'd gladly remove it. I also think that modern ignitions are fine but digital programmable setups take it a bit too far. As Oldschool said, this attitude ruined classic road racing and if we let it go ahead willy nilly as some folks seem to want, pretty soon we'll see monstrosities like the shit Dave Hall  built( YZ Yamahas disguised as BSA Bantams or Ariel leaders with late model Suzuki internals) for road racing. A good friend of mine built a Cotton 250 with a CR250 Honda crank, 6 speed Yamaha 125 gearbox and a barrell cast up to look like the original Villiers but containing late model YZ250 ports. This is extreme of course but I've been around this sport for 25 years and know that stuff like this has occasionally turned up in vintage motocross. Luckily the two bikes I refer to were spotted and no longer turn up. The funny thing is that both owners are pro class A graders who don't need to cheat and should have known better.

I'm not calling Cozzie a cheat. He's a nice bloke with a very cool bike collection who was I'm sure, just trying to make his bike ridable. Unfortunately some of the methods used aren't in fitting with the karma of the bike.

[Lozza]

Oh dear................I think a few need a cuppa tea, bex and a good lie down
Speculate as you might but fact is the engine is 100% legal.If you wish to protest feel free to stump up the $50 fee.
Unfortunately it is rules not morals that define the boundries not individuals nor morals.It isn't YOUR bike and if your not going to buy it what is all the fuss about exactly?
As far a 'ugly' pipes are concerned well it's made for a purpose to a deadline and was formed on a TS frame.It has a hybrid ignition made from period Suzuki parts built by Jens Olsen, not the bells and whistles ignition .
The only thing to come out of this 'debate' is the sad reflection of attitudes  in VMX, in so much someone makes an innocent remake and see that as a prefect opportunity to launch into a rabid personal attack

[VMX247]

Lozza,
I wouldn't call it a personal attack, I'd say its "TELL ME YOUR SECRETS" and Bursting YOUR BUBBLE
type stuff.
While they are pickin on you, they are leaven someone else alone

[firko]

My criticisms are purely based on attitude and what is and what isn't kosher, not personality. I love the bike, don't get me wrong here. I also agree with getting the bike into a ridable situation. I know how ordinary the bike was before. I don't have a problem with Jens's ignition now we know it's not a "bells and whistles" version and see that the pipe must have been off something else because I've seen better from you. I apologise for that observation. I merely think that there is making it ridable and there is taking it past the limit. Believe me Lozza, there is a moral limit, if not we'd all be riding things like my mates Cotton.
I doubt if any of us would have given a toss if you didn't play the silly "I know something that you don't" game and saying that the frame is the least trick thing about the bike. You opened the door and Pokey fed us the info (that's not quite correct as it turns out). The result was that we all have opinions and a few disagree with yours.
 

[mboddy]

maybe a new class could be investigated  for OEM bikes only. No PVL No aftermarket shocks no trick bits at all.

Isn't that what the Evo class is meant to be?

[mx250]

Gee, these threads do digress don't they . Guilty as charged  .

Pokey, you're right but programmable ignition and that plug ugly pipe take it way past the moral objectives of our sport.

Without being rude Firko, by whose standards. Motorcycling is all things to all people. To some people saying old, vintage or classic is to say old, cheap, nasty and slow. To others it is a sacred duty to preserve history. Too others it is nto the chase down that obsecure part. To others it is to have that obsecure hard too find desirable bike and to be the object ogf everyone else's envy. To others it is the engineering challenge to get that old P.O.S. up and running again as best they can, by any means they can and as cheaply as they can. To others it is to re-write history.

But whose right and whose wrong. Or is one more right, more rightious than the other? I think the sport is too small to fracture and survive. Somehow we have to find the common ground. And I think Bugsy Mann said it best with that quoteable quote IIRC "if he's got an old bike in the ute, $10 in his pocket and a good attitude he gets to ride." While that is not the current case and can't be absolute it should be the guiding principle.

Bikes like Cozzies lovely Cheney need to be preserved as they were intended, not polluted by modern additions. Some people just don't understand what the vintage movement is about and never will.

I agreed absolutely but who is to decide; who is to be the arbitor?

This adds fuel to the argument that the rulebook does indeed need some revision. Perhaps the AHRMA pipe rules about no tapered headers and fat centre sections should be included.

Sounds like it, but hasten slowly -  don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Who undertakes this task will need the wisdom of Solomon and the hide of a Rhino. The rules will have to be made for the future and not the past. In other words for the future of the sport the rules will have to appeal to the younger riders and not you and I .

But exactly where would you draw the line. Take pipes - NOS only, OEM only, period made only, or look approximately like the period pipes? And you can go through and apply that to every compondent. The more stringent the rules the more disputes, the more unhappiness, the less participants.

As Oldschool said, this attitude ruined classic road racing

I don't know how true this statement is. Classic road racing attracts world class riders and mixes ex-world champs with young riders, pushing the limits, competing and setting new rfecords and goals. There seems to be a lot of them and they seem to be having lots of fun.

... pretty soon we'll see monstrosities like the shit Dave Hall  built( YZ Yamahas disguised as BSA Bantams or Ariel leaders with late model Suzuki internals) for road racing. A good friend of mine built a Cotton 250 with a CR250 Honda crank, 6 speed Yamaha 125 gearbox and a barrell cast up to look like the original Villiers but containing late model YZ250 ports.

Quite honestly I don't know to admire these people/their work, or pity them  . It all depends on you P.O.V. and/or my mood at the time. I often find myself about to mouth the word 'Why' out loud until I remember I'm a 57yo with a gargae full of old shit that I waste time, money and effort on .

I wouldn't pretend to know a solution. My only suggest would be at that local/entry level minimum rules. May be at National levels more stringent rules.

As to 'rules' for resto's, show'n shines, garage queens and CD'6's, good luck  . 

[Yamaboy]

You make some good points Graeme but I sort of agree with Firko on taking it too far. I don't know a lot about the Cheney other that it being a damn nice thing. I'd hate to see that bike bastardised in the quest for winning a vintage race. It's too rare for that. Having said that though I have no problem with doing whatever you need to do to get a bike running well internally. I'm against huge welded on reed blocks and those awful fat pipes. Sorry Lozza but I think it's awful and detracs from the integrity of the bike. It reminds me of Sieges MX Yamaha with the pipe that looks like a cobra that swallowed a dog.
Unusually for me I know where Firko, Lozza and Graeme are all coming from and agree in part with all of you. I admire Firkos steadfast love of the history and traditions of the sport and his wish to keep it all within period guidlines. Without people with his attitude we would all be testing the boundaries like those road race blokes. I also see Lozzas nutty professor attitude towards getting these old dogs going better that they were ever intended. I confess that I have a hot rod mentality (as does Firko) but I like to use period technology or slick up the rolling rame with some geometry changes. We have to keep in mind that this is vintage racing not televised GPs with mega buck purses at stake. Winning a vintage race is like being called the prettiest fat girl! We have to remember that and ask the question as to whether we absolutely need to modify our bikes so much.
This debate has been interesting to me as it tells me that we are all different in our atitudes and in our own minds we are all right. I'm sure the rules need tightening to prevdent programmable ignitions and bodgy latetr reeds ans stuff but in reality there aren'tthat many folks who go all out on the bikes. Bring on the dunger class and it's simple rules. I just wonder what Lozza would brew up in his lab!

[pokey]

Has anyone bid on the TM yet?
I havnt looked as she is out of my budget even if i risked a good slapping from the minister for all things smile worthy.

I see that ruling of "if the engine remains the same visually  " as red flag to a bull and its a challenge to me. Thats how I see it.
 To another it could be interpreted as OEM only to another it could be only period available after market bolt on additions. The bald faced facts  are that all answers are correct under the current rulings and i like that.
 VMX isnt to me about winning, its more about enjoying the sport  the racing the repairing snd sourcing building and the mateship that comes from a mutual enjoyment of old bikes.

 I think the current open interpretation is good as it allows more people to enjoy this fine sport  and will gaurantee its longevity rather than a niche market catering to an even smaller group of devotees.


 Pipe is a bit fugly even if it works

[Nathan S]

I don't find the pipe on the Cheney TM offensive at all - it follows basically the same path as the original, and  the fattest part is where the fattest part should be.

In my eyes, this is a world apart from the low-boy up-pipes fitted to MX Yamahas and stuff, where - while the path is arguably the same as original - the pipe snakes around all over the joint, and the belly of the pipe is somewhere a lot further foward on the bike.

I can't think of a simple, enforcable way to write a rule that prohibits the visual horror of something like Seige's MX, much less one the prevents something like the TM's pipe.
Maybe a limit on the maximum diameter of the pipe (relative to engine capacity) would do it? No sure if I think its a good idea, just thinking of how it could be achieved.