OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Maico => Topic started by: peely_14 on February 17, 2017, 01:04:42 AM
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G'day fellow maico enthusiasts!
I am seeking some "maico" specific advice on starting my new toy.
I bought the bike a couple of months ago from interstate and have been trying to start it, but can't seem to get it firing. I have cleaned the carby, swapped carbys with my old boys 490, installed a decomp valve, new spark plug. Have tried kicking and push starting, however still no luck. I have bought a new spark plug cap yesterday so tomorrow I will install and see whether it has a win. I am thinking it could be low on spark?
Any suggestions would be much appreciated!
Cheers,
Peely
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Sounds like you have no evidence of life at all from the motor. Have you confirmed it has spark? No rags in airbox? Fuel + spark + air + compression should give rise to a bang every now and again. Ignition timing needs to be checked also.
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Tell us more about the bike. What ignition is fitted? What carb is fitted? Any idea on condition of piston/rings, crank seals, base gasket/head gasket etc?
What is your starting procedure?
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If it won't even push start there is something not right. Probably spark.
They have a weak spark anyway with whatever ignition is used. Like has been said what ignition has it got.
I have trouble starting my 490 but I have put it down to getting older and not having the leg strength. It usually push starts easily though. It will then kick start after that.
Another problem is not getting enough fuel in to start from cold. Either way if it doesn't push start ignition is the likely problem.
Where are you?
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check the key way hasn't sheered giving incorrect timing
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check the exhaust for wasp mice bugs etc. this can prevent ignition as well.
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Has it made any type of noise. Back fire any thing,
Does it have spark
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Is the Plug wet?. WHAT Ignition System does it have?
If it is Motoplat BIN IT.
Replace with PVL or HPI.
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Remove the pipe and carby, Tip some fuel straight into the inlet and then see if she fires up, If that doesn't work it will the timing or lack of spark or compression.
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Don't like to be negative about others posts but I would not try to start a bike with the carb off as it is possible with a case full of fuel for the motor to over rev and do it self harm. Poor in some fuel but put the carb back on first, that way you can control the RPM.
With the advice on ditching Motoplat. Don't rush into that as I seen several 490's that are impossible to kick start after being fitted with PVL's. They push start but with fresh pistons fitted the kick speed is just not high enough make a spark.
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Don't like to be negative about others posts but I would not try to start a bike with the carb off as it is possible with a case full of fuel for the motor to over rev and do it self harm. Poor in some fuel but put the carb back on first, that way you can control the RPM.
With the advice on ditching Motoplat. Don't rush into that as I seen several 490's that are impossible to kick start after being fitted with PVL's. They push start but with fresh pistons fitted the kick speed is just not high enough make a spark.
Motoplat ignitions can be rebuilt etc. If you want to add fuel or even aerostart you can do it through the sparkplug hole. But if it isn't push starting it probably hasn't got spark. If it has engine might need a rebuild.
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The problem with the PVL System kits on some Maico,s earlyer in the peace was the kit had or the customer ordered the wrong stator Assembly.
The Stators only had 1500 turns on generator Coil.
This will not generate the higher voltage needed for kick starting. Should have been Approximatley 4000.
I think this problem is now solved. Anyway you do not know what you are missing till using the PVL.
Less kick back on a 400. Easyer to kick start. Better Engine responding to throttle. No plug Fouling.
On the 250 4 speed the Engine will rev to Infinity. Very Easy to Start.
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peely . Whats happening. Have you go that 490 going.
Has it got spark. Or have you found some other problem?.
Cannot be that hard. After all Maicos are easy to fix.
WE NEED TO KNOW.
MAICO 1970 250 square barrel. 2016 OZ Title Winner.
1980 GS400 . 1981 250 Mega 2.
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chirp chirp chirrup chirp...... ::)
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?
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Hi all,
Apologies for the delayed response it has been a busy week at work andnot much time for toys!
I had a look at the ignition, running the standard motoplat ignition. I Changed the spark plug cap and trimmed back the plug lead, tried kicking it again by no joy. I check the plug after and still not much fuel on the end of the plug so Im assuming maybe not enough fuel? I am priming the carby, until it comes out the overflow hoses. I have since taken off the head and discovered that the piston is a little worse for wear. When I get a chance I will upload some pics.
Cheers,
Peely.
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When you prime it/tickle it flick throttle open a few times while doing it and let it really flood out the hoses. Then hold it on about 1/4 throttle and kick with the decomp held in. Helps to have the bike facing down hill as well.
If that doesn't work make sure the carb is clean and passages are clear. Also check that the nylon sleeve over the barrel intake spigot is fitted correctly, there is a notch in it's face that needs to be down to allow the idle passage of the Bing carb to be open.
Being a little down on compression normally makes them easier to start but if the piston is really bad it could be a problem, you would fell the lack of compression kicking over.
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Thanks for all your replies fellas, much appreciated!
"PezBERG" I have seen the bike running via a video the seller sent me :-\ . He told me that the bike had been rebuilt by the previous owner and that he had not ridden the bike due to ACL injuries and the inability to start the bike, the however the state of the piston indicates that it has done some time and looking very unhealthy (see pic). I'm not saying that this is entirely the reason for it not starting but now that I have the head off I might as well freshen the top end up.
"Paul" no she hasn't sounded lively at all, so lacking either fuel or spark. Originally I thought it was a lack of fuel as the plug was not wet and so I swapped out carbys with the old mans 490 and still no joy. Spark was there but not as intense as I thought it should be, hence why I then thought maybe spark?
"80-85 Husky" Funny you mention about the exhaust. When I was removing the exhaust I discovered a heap of fuel inside of it along with what I assume to be water/moisture (see pic).
Following "sleepy" throttle technique, a fresh piston the old girl should start, yea?? :D . Just running the standard bing carby "sleepy"!
Would like to continue troubleshooting before swapping ignitions, but if I continue to have no joy this will be my last resort.
"KTM47" I am in Perth.
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb383/peely1/490%20Piston.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/peely1/media/490%20Piston.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb383/peely1/490%20Spew.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/peely1/media/490%20Spew.jpg.html)
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If you are looking at the motor check the bigend for play and the main bearings.
Like I said if it has got spark it should at least push start, but maybe the motor is too worn.
Lots of Maico parts available. Maico @ Chippys is your man in Australia. Google him.
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Perth. I was going to suggest to bring it over and I could take a look but since I'm in Brisbane!!
Is the piston ring still free in the groove the whole way around?
I have seen piston that look worse than that and the motors still run but if the ring is jammed in the groove it may not have enough compression.
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Its a wounder it has any compression.
It looks like it has had no Oil in the fuel and Dirt and Dust has gone though the Engine.
Also water has been in the crankcase.
This means the crank pin and rod is most likely pitted/rusted.
Best do a full rebuild. Top end, Rod Kit and all bearings, including gear box.
Do not forget the Primary chains. Try to test the ignition on another bike.
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Gentleman, I'm back!
Since last time I have had a new piston and ring kit installed and barrel honed. The bottom end was inspected and all appeared ok. It is only now I have time to put it all back together to discover its still doesn't want to kick over :-[
When I prime the carby fuel continues to flow out the vent pipes and bottom of the bowl, would this suggest a dodgy float seat? I did inspect the carby thoroughly and ensured that the floats ran parrell with the base of carb as per manual. The only damaged component I have discovered in the carb is the plastic intake sleeve (see pic). Any other suggestions?
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb383/peely1/Bing%20Fuel%20Intake%20Sleeve.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/peely1/media/Bing%20Fuel%20Intake%20Sleeve.jpg.html)
As you say Nebo Im prob best trying my ignition on another bike.
All i want to do is twist that throttle on and ride. Sick of seeing her in bits and covered in fuel.
Thanks guys!
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Float needle and seat could be a bit worn but my money would be on contamination coming out of the tank. Do you have a filter in the fuel line to the carb?
The plastic won't cause any issue just make sure that the idle passage remains clear.
Get yourself a timing light on the plug lead and watch for a flash while kicking. Try with the plug out first to check the timing light is functioning then put the plug back in and kick. If no flash you have found the problem. With the plug out there is no pressure which reduces the voltage to jump the gap also plug out kicking is much higher kick speed so seeing a spark with the plug out is no guarantee of a spark with plug in.
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Makes Perfect sense sleepy! I will do that and see how I go. Thanks for the prompt response.
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Is the fuel coming out of the over flow hose or around the bowl. The cork gasket will leak if it gets old and dry.
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HI. I agree with Sleepy and KTM 47. Float Needle is most likly worn.
This Critical in a Bing Carb. Also the Float pin should be replaced .
As groves in pin can give a false reading of the Float level.
Use Motel 800 at 32 : 1. Run in with at least 4 Heat Cycles.
Jetting with modern fuel. 50 Pilot Main 190/195. 98 octane.
Broken Plastic addaptor In carb. replace it. May Cause Air Leak.
Keep us Posted on your Progress.
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Dirt !!! under Float !!!plastic insert should not be a problem
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So I purchased a timing light, with a positive result. So I have spark.
I therefore swapped carby over with the old mans carby (incl slide and neeedle).
Kick, kick, kick, kick.... nothing!
I checked the plug and it smelt of fuel but wasn't dripping in fuel. Should I expect more fuel on plug? If a known working carby is installed i wouldve have assumed the fuel entering barrel Would've been sufficient. Is there anything strange that could be happening occurring between carby and barrel to be depriving barrel of fuel?
My next step will be to swap over the ignition unit from my dads bike.
Nebo, thanks mate. will have to purchase a carby rebuild kit.
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have you checked compression? big bores can feel like they have it but it may be low.
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Hi Hoony, yeah should have enough compression has a new top end and barrel has been honed to repair original wear.
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Have you done a leak down test? Air leaks on Maicos are very common, I've even seen one with a porous crankcase casting.
The only other thing I can think of that hasn't been mentioned is a crankcase with fuel laying in the bottom end due to a failed float needle.
Tony.
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Hi Tony, that's very interesting!
What should a freshly rebuilt 490 be producing in comp test? 110/115?
Whilst I am away in Vietenam at the moment the old man has kindly been working on the bike. Today he swapped over his CDI unit onto my bike and it's the most life he has seen in her. 1 kick back and 3 misfires. He now has a sore leg and will kick later today haha. He found fuel in exhaust which I assume is from when my carby was fitted and floats were not working.
If some one can indicate a ballpark comp figure he can test that and if all is good there my money is on CDI unit.
Cheers,
JOSH.
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Hi Josh, a leak down test is different to a compression test. A compression test will indicate the condition of the top end only.
A leak down test is performed to determine if there are any leaks in the bottom end or crankcase area, it can be leaking crank seals, more likely the ignition side although the primary drive seal can also have a poor seal, and they will suck gearbox oil in and burn it, you'll know if it's that by the amount of smoke if you can start it. It can also be the centre case gasket or sealing area, or as mentioned, a porous casing.
Basically you need to seal the intake and exhaust ports, attach a pressure guage and apply around 10psi, then watch how long it can hold that pressure, and over what period of time it loses pressure.
If it does not hold air, you need to determine where it's leaking from and rectify the leak.
This is important in any two stroke engine as without the correct crankcase compression, your engine can be hard to start, run badly, or not run at all.
I hope I've explained this clearly but I'm sure Youtube will show what I mean. Have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdq7NRcUIp8
Tony.
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I should have mentioned, if as you say, you have fuel in your exhaust, this will prevent most two strokes from starting almost every time.
Before doing anything else, disconnect your ignition, remove the spark plug, put it in 3rd gear and push it as fast as you can, if you see plenty of fuel mist (the reason for disabling the ignition) being pumped out the plug hole then you may have found your problem.
Put it back together, turn the fuel on only long enough to fill the float bowl, turn the fuel off and try starting again, this has worked for me quite a few times over the years and has saved many hours of looking for other problems.
Good luck, Tony.
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Thanks again Tony, all understood. Will let you know how we go!
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peely-14. No hear from you.
Have you got the MAICO running yet?.
We are all dieing to know.
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Nebo, thanks for the msg. My emotions have been up and down over the 490.
The latest is, despite using the CDI unit and carby off the old mans bike she would still not fire but was showing signs of life. We then adjusted the timing so that it was identical to the old mans and booomm she fired, hooooorayyyyyy. We kicked her over prob 3 times at home and decided it was time to take her out and run her in.
I wheeled her off the trailer, first kick and she was alive. With the worlds biggest smile I clicked her into gear for the first time and took off. I completed all of half a lap before stalling her nooooooooo!!!! I kicked and kicked and kicked. Changed the plugs. Tried push starting (I assume too much compression as rear wheel kept locking up). Got tired of kicking, loaded up and went home even more puzzled.
Tomorrow we will also swap over the stator and see whether that helps.
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peely-14. Glad your getting some were.
Good idea to check the decompresser .
They block up with carbon. Make sure it is opening fully. Adjust the cable.
Getting back to the Problem. Sounds like faulty Stator Coil or Pickup/Trigger coil.
Keep us posted.
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Hi guys, i did a leak down test today and discovered a leak at the barrel base gasket (front and back).
I couldn't find any other leaks. leak down results were a rate of 10% per 2mins 50seconds. Does this sound excessive? I'm thinking I will pull engine back out and fit a new base gasket. Then try leak test once again? I understand no engine is 100% leak proof.
What are your thoughts?
Cheers Peely.
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Front and rear base leak may mean that the case halves are not aligned.
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Probably worth changing the gasket and using a smear of 3 bond on the case joints front and back but I doubt if that is causing your starting issue.
Very hard to work out why it won't start without seeing in person, an example is a customers with a YZ465 who couldn't kick start it. After looking at the bike here I could start it but it took 100% effort to kick it, so when the owner turned up I got him to show me how he kicks it. Despite him being over 100kgs he kicked it like a girl just sitting in the seat and prodding at the lever and it was never going to start. After a bit of a lesson on how to kick a bigbore bike and put all his weight into it he has never had to push it since.
Assuming you know how to kick it properly the only thing I can think is the carb maybe flooding a little making it to rich to start. You have said in a previous post that there was fuel in the exhaust, and I would guess it must have had a case full of fuel as well.
When you had it running and stalled it did you fall over? Did you have a suitable place to kick it? I need to stand on a drum beside the bike and use my right leg to kick. I've never been able to start a bigbore Maico with my left leg sitting on the bike.
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Hi guys, so im more stumped than ever.
Today; I tried reversing everything and installed electrical components on old mans bike.
1) I installed my CDI unit and my stator to the old mans bike = would fire on every kick, but not run.
- I removed exhaust to check to see if fuel was sitting in there, nothing! Cleaned plug.
2) I installed his CDI unit and my stator - No fire (lifeless)
3) I installed his CDI unit and his stator - No fire (lifeless)
So now we have two maicos not running, :-\
I did find that I was able to deliver a stronger kick through his bike prob partly due to lower compression and sounded like his decomp valve releases more air than mine. Im not sure whether I need to pull apart my kick mechanism. Sometimes mine locks up on me at the top. If im not delivering a strong enough kick, could mean Im not generating quite enough spark. Having said his I have kicked the shit out of mine and still been dead as a dodo.
Good point Momus! Sleepy - Yes I would assume it should still start, which it had the other week. Nah I didn't fall off when i stalled it, was just My old man has owned his 490 since it was 6months old, so he has a few years experience kicking the old girls and even he cant kick it over. We are like you, stand on a crate and kick with our right leg. Anyway I can check if CDI is the problem out of bike?
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Be careful mixing Motoplat components. One 490 I sorted a few years back had a mismatched Motoplat (they should have matching numbers stamped on stator and rotor) which made the timing about 10 degrees advanced. The owner turned up with the bike he had bought recently walking with crutches for his badly damaged ankle after attempting to start it with the advanced timing. The timing marks are only good if the numbers match. I worked out with a timing light where the timing should be and it started quite well afterwards.
Another 490 was starting ok until I bored it 2mm oversize for the owner and after that he couldn't kick start it due to the extra compression. Ended up fitting an 18mm decomp valve and 2 head gaskets.
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Your really chaseing your tail,I've watching this thread for ages waiting for that 490 too start ,my advice to you would be send bike to Paul stacker and get him to go through it ,if you want a reliable bike ( as far as Maicos go ) that's what I'd do ,Geoff Ballard does it ,I've had Maicos I've bought apparently running condition that were pigs. Especialy a square barrell I got from qld ,that was rooted.i sent it to Paul and he sorted it no problem ,food for thought hey
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Well you may as well have my 2c worth to go along with everyone else's ;)
The short.... it seems you are pretty confident its ignition related. If it were mine I'd get an HPI/Electrex replacement and go from there. Life is too short and 490's are too much fun to be stuffing about with 35 year old ignition systems.
Longer.... now two dead maicos implies you're doing something wrong with your installation (hard to imagine what), both ignitions are marginal (see above) or you've damaged them (haven't been cranking them without an earthed plug I hope?). My clutching at straws suggestions: run an earth wire from the stator to the coil, disconnect the kill switch, use a fine wire electrode plug, reduce the gap to 20 thou and make sure you have only one resistor in the system (either plug or cap).
ps When it fires but won't start, does it kick back? If so try retarding the timing a bit (to say 1mm btdc) to get it running then put a timing light on it to see what its up to.
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I guess someone (I am not going back three pages) has told you that the motoplat system must have non resistor plug caps and non resistor plugs. The motoplat ignitions will not drive a resistor in the system unless in absolutely perfect and even then only just. The top HT ignition coil in the motoplat system have some of the electronics in them an SCR and one of the capacitors from memory.
The stators in motoplat system rarely die outright they just get weaker and weaker as more and more winding turns fail by shorting out. The first sign is poor starting followed by fouled plugs and finally they are hard to start even by pushing.
The HT coil however do fail outright. I assume you have the correct HT Coil (red plug lead). The points ignition HT coils looks almost the same but has a black HT lead.
The largest gap that a motoplat will jump under compression reliably is 0.6mm (0.024") which is much less than modern or period Japanese CDIs. Motoplats don't seem to like iridium plugs from my experience B7/8/9EGV all the way. Gapped at 0.56mm B8EGV plugs last all year.
Attaching a wire directly from the stator backing plate and earth bracket of the HT coil is an excellent idea. All my Motoplat systems (5 off) have that as a permanent fixture.
As mentioned the flywheel and stator must match (there are dozens and dozens of versions including clockwise and counter clockwise rotation). They do not mix as it throws the timing out significantly as pointed out.
This is a long shot but I have seen the wires attached to the HT coil reversed this happens when people cut wires etc. The two spades on the HT LV side are different sizes but it could be wired up incorrectly. This means the charging wired cooks the trigger circuit in the HT coil. This may account for now having two dead bikes.
Pack the whole lot up and send them to Small Coil Rewinds (Vic) or Betta Bikes (SA) who will test them in real time as a complete system. They can also rewind stators or remagnetise flywheels etc. PVL make a replacement HT coil although I have never tried one. There are NOS HT coils on EBay US sometimes usually as Harley Davision parts (from the Italian Harleys).
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Hi guys, I finally have some good news!
The reason for old mans bike not running was a faulty kill switch.
My bike: We conducted a series of bench tests on my ignition system and discovered results were all within the limits and were therefore confident that ignition shouldn't be a player and running out of ideas convinced that timing must have been responsible. Matching the timing as per the book proved to be insufficient for a start (showed no signs of life), along with matching the old mans setup. Instead we advanced it as much as we could so we had kickbacks, then retarded until no kick backs until BANG she was alive first kick. All I need to do now is service my bing carby.
Now with the enduro season over, I can have time to run her in and get her ready to rock n roll for next season. Thank you once again to everyone that has helped me along the way sharing years of wisdom.
Regards Peely_14
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Are you saying the timing marks were out?
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Yeah tony27 timing marks are out. Started 2nd kick today and rode well for 10minutes. After parking it up to make some adjustments to brakes etc she didn't want to start again haha.
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Hey guys,
Sorry to be back here asking more questions but I feel im getting closer to resolving the problem.
Last friday I attempted to start my bike after having to replace the kickstarter shaft after it snapped. On the 3rd kick she was alive. I kept it alive for 5mins, before deciding it's time to take it out to finally run it in. I turned her off and immediately attempted to start again, on the 2nd/3rd kick she was alive again. Loaded her up and took her out bush. Started 3rd/4th kick and rode for 5mins before having to turn her off and make some adjustments to brakes. Started once again after 6 kicks and rode on stop for 40mins. She ran superbly, every now and then she would bog down a little but never stalled. The old man decided to stall it and that was it day was done, she would not kick
Over again. I put a timing light on plug lead and failed to get any light. Loaded her up and headed home.
Next morning I tried starting again, with no joy and again timing light indicated no light when kicking.
Thoughts? Faulty coil?
Can't wait to have some consistency.
Cheers, Josh.
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Atleast with no spark you have a chance of diagnosis.
First check kill switch and all wiring for shorts or open circuits. I have a Bosch ignition on my 81 400 that the insulation on the wires coming out of the trigger coil had perished and was intermittently shorting. It only started to cause a problem after I adjusted the timing last time.
Next you could swap the coil with your fathers for a test.
When you are checking for spark, have you tried with the plug out so as to check at higher kick speed?
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Thanks sleepy, yes hopefully narrowing it down. Will do some more tests when I'm home in a couple of weeks and see what we get. Cheers.