NOT VMX - Toyota Kluger - any mechanics out there?

[Hoony]

This forum has a wealth of knowledge amongst its ranks, not only vmx but of many topics you could ever imagine someone will know something. so with this in mind i thought this maybe worth a try.

I have a 2009 V6 Toyota Kluger that has developed an intermittent problem. 150,00 km on the clock one owner (Us)

It occasionally has Blue smoke coming out the exhaust but not all the time.

:- Some mornings (but not all, it’s very intermittent) a big puff of blue smoke on initial start but then it clears very fast.

:- After prolonged freeway driving (100kmh) and then pulling onto an off ramp to a standstill, and then mild acceleration a large plume is seen which then clears very quickly.

This is very strange and the intermittent nature of this has me confused. I was thinking valve stem seals at first but then I would think that the issue would be every cold start (but this is not the case)


all replies appreciated.

Hoony

[Stewart Allen]

Sounds like valve stem seals/ valve guides. How many km's ?

[llewdaert]

Stem seals or EGR issue?

Sounds like valve stem seals/ valve guides. How many km's ?

[Gippslander]

What engine?
The "old" test for stem seals is to get up to operating temp and drive a few k's then in say 3rd gear (or lock/hold in gear if auto) go down a long hill with foot of the throttle, then put throttle down and the oil that has been sucked in through the faulty stem seal(s) should burn with a resulting easily seen puf of smoke - and you may need someone following to make sure
Also - is it blue or black smoke?  Blue = oil  Black = fuel  (generally the same for both diesel and petrol engines)
is the oil level way too high? can cause all sorts of smoke and power problems
Is it using any oil? check the dipstick - engines can burn a lot of oil and not leave much smoke that the driver can see (those following will see it), might be burning oil all the time and just puffs a cloud when it gets really loaded up
smoke at startup is easily checked for colour - if it's blue then it's oil and that can only mean oil getting into cylinders by "dripping" in on top of the piston - often valve guide or stem seals but not always.

[80-85 husky]

try putting a can of that engine clean or injector clean thru, then I would give it an oil change and filter and also search the Toyota forums, maybe a common fault with those engines??. sure sounds like stem seals to me. pretty easy fix I would assume...once all the peripherals are unbolted

[Hoony]

Thanks Guys, 150,000 km on the clock one owner (us) so the engine should not be stuffed yet.

80-85 Husky, i have done the engine flush/cleaner 3 times seemed to improve frequency of the smoke ( less frequent) but still there.

Gippslander, i will try what you suggest

[Mick D]

I'm pretty sure it's only the hilux's that are unbreakable.

[80-85 husky]

at 150k's it may be reaching its used by date. if the oil rings on 1 piston have failed you can also get that similar smoke pattern. compression test wont help you tho. if the "engine cleaner" is reducing the smoke, it may be a stuck oil ring etc. check out the process to do the valve stems first and if it isn't "fousands" of dollars, try that first. it only takes 1 or 2 seals to go hard to cause issues. the compressed air in the cyl to hold the valves up makes it a fairly easy job as long as the cam stuff comes off easily.

[sleepy]

Find an inspection camera and have a look at the piston tops, if there is wet oil anywhere around edge of the crown it is most likely to be rings. If no oil on pistons it could be stem seals.

[brucey]

At 8 years old and such low k I am more inclined to say EGR valve I recently replaced mine and that resolved my occasional dump of blue smoke in the morning

Good luck with it mate

Bruce 

[80-85 husky]

put one of these in er..that'l sort it
https://youtu.be/be_B9eOFZHY

[Hoony]

At 8 years old and such low k I am more inclined to say EGR valve I recently replaced mine and that resolved my occasional dump of blue smoke in the morning

Good luck with it mate

Bruce

Thanks Bruce what is a EGR valve are the modern engine equivalent of a PCV ? i'm not a car bloke.

[llewdaert]

egr.= Exhaust gas recirculator
 Feeds exhaust gas back to the inlet manifold
Part of the pollution control stuff
It is illegal to put a blanking plate to disable the device
The plates are usually easy to buy from ebay, and google provides the technical details.
They can make the inlet manifold oily and foul.
This may be the smoking cause??

[Hoony]

Thanks mate i appreciate the info above

[Mick D]

Blue smoke is burning oil.

Most likely a sludge build up in the baffle that is supposed to stop oil being sucked through to the intake manifold via the PCV valve. 99.9% certain.

[Mick D]

I hate weighing in on these cyber diagnostics.
Never looked under the bonnet of a Kluger, but the principles of this problem are all the same.
Is it petrol or diesel, cause this is important. Turbo? or not? The only 2009 Klugers I can find on Gumtree are Petrol?
So let's go with petrol n/aspirated first.

Ok, It is intermittent, but clears quickly when it does happen.

It will most likely be a relative small amount of oil being drawn into combustion by intake suction.
Most likely via the the Positive Crankcase Ventilator valve from time to time, just prior to the occurrence of smoke.

These valves are cheap, though I doubt replacing the valve will fix the problem.
There will be a baffle plate installed in the Valve cover(head cover) just under the connection point, Head/valve cover is what we used to call the tappet or rocker cover.
This baffle is there to stop oil from going into the ventilator valve and therefore engine intake.

There will most likely be a buildup of sludge in that 'Baffle". This prevents the oil from draining back and inevitably an amount then gets sucket through to the intake instead.

Oils ain't oils, some built sludge much more quickly than others.

There is a quick test for this. Do you have an oil catch can or can you make one and put it in line. PCV line. If the intermittent burst of smoke stops then obviously this is the source of your woes.

Yeap, my money is sludge in the PCV baffle. Which means your whole engine will have evidence of sludge throughout.
So have a look down inside your oil filler cap. See any sludge? If you don't have an endoscopy?
Hot glue a little piece of mirror on a stick and grab your torch. 

 

[Hoony]

thanks guys appreciate all help here. looking to be informed so i can make an informed choice of mechanic

[Lozza]

Stop tipping your old premix in the tank Hoony 

[Mick D]

Do this first!

Yeap, my money is sludge in the PCV baffle. Which means your whole engine will have evidence of sludge throughout.
So have a look down inside your oil filler cap. See any sludge? If you don't have an endoscopy?
Hot glue a little piece of mirror on a stick and grab your torch.   

Internal sludge build up also perfectly explains this

:- After prolonged freeway driving (100kmh) and then pulling onto an off ramp to a standstill, and then mild acceleration a large plume is seen which then clears very quickly.

Modern engines, for the sake of economy cut all injection as throttle is backed of. So at closed throttle body/deceleration  there is no bang, no fire happening. (nothing gets burnt, but drawn in scavenged oil tends to collect in the absence of combustion).
The off ramp still holds revs up for extended period and oil is still being pumped in great amounts to quad cams and HLAs. The return path to the sump for all that oil is greatly restricted because of Sludge formation throughout your engine. During this off ramp run the the throttle body valve closed, but the revs still up and oil is still being delivered proportional to RPM. Inlet/combustion chamber suction is through the roof because T/body valve is closed. The moment you light it back up at the end of the off ramp,,,,wahlah,,,now appears the evidence of the oil that has collected around your valves and PCV instead of return draining.

I have for example witnessed/pulled down high milage petrol V6 engines that have minimal sludge/milage.
They have had more frequent 5K oil changes with higher quality oils than some I have pulled down with
low milage but are full of sludge.
Those lower milage full of sludge engines have only had oil changed every 10K with cheap crap selected to increase the profit margins of the that mechanic.   

Some mechanics will tell you "she's shot mate" "valve stem seals, rings, whole engine mate".
Sludge formation. ? ? I think.

[Mick D]

Toyota quad cam? 150k, services at 5k intervals with full synthetic= long life, minimal sludge.

Toyota quad cam 150k, services at 10K intervals with less than optimal lube=premature sludge formation.

[Hoony]

many many thanks Mick, really appreciate this. off to see a mechanic soon.

[evo550]

Stop tipping your old premix in the tank Hoony 

Funny you mentioned that Lozza, had a Kluger from new used to empty what was left of pre mix into the tank every Monday, back then used to use R30 castor oil. Kluger went in for 1st service (15000klm) told the dealer I've noticed a bit of a knock in the engine under load (bit like a deisel) One thing lead to another after a week I get a call, they had replaced the motor. Extensive build up of carbon on piston tops, injectors fcuked and orange sludge covering all the internals.......that's R30 for you.

[Lozza]

Stop tipping your old premix in the tank Hoony 

Funny you mentioned that Lozza, had a Kluger from new used to empty what was left of pre mix into the tank every Monday, back then used to use R30 castor oil. Kluger went in for 1st service (15000klm) told the dealer I've noticed a bit of a knock in the engine under load (bit like a deisel) One thing lead to another after a week I get a call, they had replaced the motor. Extensive build up of carbon on piston tops, injectors fcuked and orange sludge covering all the internals.......that's R30 for you.

No doubts you informed the dealer about the premix  Once I put about 2 litres of premix to get to the servo my Falcon did not like it one little bit coughed and farted all the way there.

[80-85 husky]

the old 307 likes the castor 727, smells good!

[Mick D]

the old 307 likes the castor 727, smells good!

A Munroe who can drink oil, and then she can fart perfume,,,,hard to beat

[Mick D]

Think I have bad news for you Hoony,,,,,,
Tried to speak with a few old friends/acquaintances this morning,,,,spoke to one very clever current mechanic anyhow.

He agrees too, that the signs you are getting are the first signs of internal sludge formation.
Although he doesn't service any Klugers, He says he has heard of them starting to drop like flies from sludge overload and here is the terrible bit,,,
  Apparently Toyota not only know about it!! he reckons it is the subject of a class action against Toyota in the US!! by wait for it,,, by KLUGER OWNERS

I respect this fellow too. not one of your average BS guys.

I can explain why the occasional burst of blue and then clears on cold start ups too.
I will attempt that latter.

[Mick D]

Internal sludge formation completely destroys engines.

It acts as an insulator as it coats internal surfaces, thereby inhibiting transfer of heat from the oil itself.
The hotter oil becomes the more sludge it then produces.

There is a lot of oil pumped up top to feed 4 x camshafts and 24V,,means 24 Hydraulic Lash Adjusters to feed also.

The oil pump starts to struggle. Not only is it at risk of cavitation because its intake strainer is also becoming
clogged with Sludge. The helpful "Head" that it would normally have is trapped up top as sludge coated paths slow and restricts its return.
The outer wall surfaces of the sump, bathed in cooler atmosphere are integral to help transfer heat out of the oil.
No good when the level drops because it is being held up top in a place where all the heat is made.

Internal sludge formation supports a vicious cycle that precedes death.

[80-85 husky]

fill her up with a mix of .25 deisol and .75 atf for a flushing mix. (you can actually buy flushing oil I think?) ive seen old oily red holdens given this treatment but im not sure if a more modern engine would cope.

[Mick D]

When will we learn
      "If in doubt Google will help you out"

Wow,,ok ok, I have linked this PIC to the web page so CLICK ON THIS PIC FOR THE FULL STORY


I find no joy in being the bearer of bad news Hoony, but at least you know what you are dealing with now.
Good luck mate.

[Hoony]

thanks Mick i just read that acticle after reading your post about class action. i did same google search. yep still old scholl as i don't think google 1st up i tend to ask someone in the know.

not good news and my brain now hurts 

[GMC]

We all love to diagnose running problems and often I read of new and unheard of problems but many of us have got it wrong by trying to understand symptoms via the screen where we don’t see all the info that’s really needed to analyze so don’t be too dejected until you have had it checked out professionally.
The good thing with modern cars and their computers is that you can attach a scanner and read the error codes, this may or may not show up your problem but I believe it’s your first port of call.

If you don’t know anyone you can trust then give Jason at Full Flow Injector Cleaning a call on 0419 500 707
He handles diagnostics as well as injector cleaning and often sorts out problems for workshops that can’t work it out for themselves.
I think your down eastern Suburbs? Jason mostly works the Western & Northern suburbs but I’m not sure how wide his run is so you should give him a call, he’s a straight up guy (rides dirt bikes). Tell him I sent you, no maybe don’t mention me in case you turn out to be a pain in the arse job.

Just had a win myself, thought the wifes VE had done a head gasket, had me stumped for ages how it kept losing water all the time, been getting worse of late, whenever I checked the water the system always had pressure in it and it had the tell tale bubbles coming up through the water so I had convinced myself that the head gasket was done even though it never over heated unless I forgot to check it and it was down on water.
That was until I noticed bubbles coming up through the water even though the engine wasn’t running, then I finally twigged that the gas convertor must have corroded and was leaking gas into the coolant system.
Couldn’t work out why some days it would be fine but most days not, in hindsight it was always fine when the wife had run it out of gas and flipped over to petrol.
Just running it on petrol now until I can get it fixed but it should be a cheap fix compared to doing a head gasket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y4yIA5r4yA

[Hoony]

some good advice here and i will follow up on it.

checked the video and i reckon the government are now doing coal seam fracking up Broady way 

[GMC]

I got the above phone No wrong but its fixed now