OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Mick D on January 30, 2018, 09:16:06 PM
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I am hoping some of the brains trust will help me out here. I'd be great full if you would.
Ok, even though Pete (Yamaico) offered to make me a big fin head for my XR project. I do not want to bludge of him. I would like to have a go at it myself.
Aiming at that tig weld finish for authenticity sort of look.
I only have 240 volts and need to butt weld 3mm plate to existing fins.
There is a Unimig 200 on ebay. I need someone to tell me if I am buying the right welder. I will find the link.... be back
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This with a foot control, will it do 3mm please?
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F301251448787 (https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F301251448787)
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200 amp will do 8mm okay and more
Foot controls are over rated
For thick material though you will need a water cooled torch.
Unimigs used to be good welders but I don't know what they are like these days, hardly anybody makes there own welders anymore, most of them are rebadged to suit the seller.
Quality units are $5-6 grand
There are a lot of these style of units around between $1-2 grand
The old story; you get what you pay for.
Its the duty cycle that comes into it if your going to be welding all day long.
Have you TIG welded before?
If not then factor in a couple of bottles of argon and lost of scraps to get the hang of it.
Controlled melting, you have to develop judgements, not unlike buying a MX bike and then learning to ride
Same thing here but I know nothing of the seller
https://www.ewelders.com.au/uni-mig-tig-mma-200amp-ac-dc-inverter/
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You will need a 15 Amp plug and a dedicated 4mm2 circuit unless you like running out to the power box a lot. Plenty of people file the earth pin down so it fits in a 10amp GPO but normal wiring is only 1.5mm2(???) not good if you're pulling a few amps continually. There is a very good welder at Sandgate that will do a lot of work for $100 cash.
Most of the welders come from China with different control panels and housings all the inverter IGBT technology is basically the same. Ask suppliers if they sell spare boards/fans for them and the cost. Tokentools at Wyong has good welders and more importantly replacement boards and fans in stock (even for a 8 year old welder like mine). 200amp machines will handle 3mm ali no probs, pre heat the head though.
This is a good machine with triangular AC wave.
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/OLYMPIC-ALU-TIG-200P-AC-DC-INVERTER-PULSE-WELDER-LEADS/142169138781?epid=722853523&hash=item2119f0e65d:g:XukAAOSw5cNYGtA1
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You will need a 15 Amp plug and a dedicated 4mm2 circuit unless you like running out to the power box a lot. Plenty of people file the earth pin down so it fits in a 10amp GPO but normal wiring is only 1.5mm2(???)
What a load of shit! All over Australia the wiring standard for 10amp General Purpose Outlets is minimum 2.5mm/squared. rated at 16amp for slow blow fuse or 20amps if circuit breakers are installed.
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You will need a 15 Amp plug and a dedicated 4mm2 circuit unless you like running out to the power box a lot. Plenty of people file the earth pin down so it fits in a 10amp GPO but normal wiring is only 1.5mm2
Don't know who wired your place Lozza, but power is run in 2.5mm2 cable, good for up to 20A.
Mick, if you have a spare circuit breaker slot in your dist. board just fit a 16A breaker and run 2.5mm2 cable to a 15A outlet. If you need the welder any distance away you can get 15A extension leads from Bunning (just don't leave it coiled up when welding).
I bought a 200A Jasic from Toolies in Sandgate when I was working at NCIG and it has been great, use it all the time and it's faultless. I weld heavy aluminium at up to 200A regularly, but as Geoff says, watch the duty cycle. 3mm will be no problem at all. Preheating with oxy or an oven is a good idea at any time, but particularly with you cylinder head. I usually put parts back in the oven after welding and, with it turned off, just let them gradually cool in there.
Buy your Argon from Gasweld and just pay for refills, no more getting raped by BOC on yearly rental.
Cheers, Pete.
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I really appreciate the correct professional guidance and information Pete and Geoff.
Pete, does this look like the 200 Jasic that you bought?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Jasic-200p-TIG-AC-DC-analogico-jt-200a-Soldador-5-ano-garantia/322035078588?hash=item4afac955bc:g:it0AAOSwa3BZ6Ltk (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Jasic-200p-TIG-AC-DC-analogico-jt-200a-Soldador-5-ano-garantia/322035078588?hash=item4afac955bc:g:it0AAOSwa3BZ6Ltk)
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That's similar Mick, but mine is probably an older model. I seem to remember it has Unimig on it somewhere too, if that's any help. I can get more details and take a photo tomorrow for you if you like.
Update: Just had a look at that one that Geoff posted and it's quite similar to mine and it's a Unimig.
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No need Pete, I am just going to go ahead and buy this one below. Cheers anyhow.
$1,214 delivered. Full kit as pictured. 3.5 yr warranty. All spare parts available ex oz.
(https://i.imgur.com/XaJcgYI.png)
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200 amp will do 8mm okay and more
Foot controls are over rated
For thick material though you will need a water cooled torch.
Unimigs used to be good welders but I don't know what they are like these days, hardly anybody makes there own welders anymore, most of them are rebadged to suit the seller.
Quality units are $5-6 grand
There are a lot of these style of units around between $1-2 grand
The old story; you get what you pay for.
Its the duty cycle that comes into it if your going to be welding all day long.
Have you TIG welded before?
If not then factor in a couple of bottles of argon and lost of scraps to get the hang of it.
Controlled melting, you have to develop judgements, not unlike buying a MX bike and then learning to ride
Same thing here but I know nothing of the seller
https://www.ewelders.com.au/uni-mig-tig-mma-200amp-ac-dc-inverter/
Thanks Geoff, I appreciate your effort.
I do not have a lot of money and cannot justify a lot of money. I just want to chip away on my bikes, duty cycle will not bother me and like you said they used to be good machines. 3.5 year warranty sounds like they still maybe? sounds positive ;D
Yes Geoff. One of only 4 fitter/machinists indentured as a Fitter/welder at port Waratah. The welding teacher was hopeless, but learnt a bit at Tighes Hill Tech College though. I have got Stainless tig down pat,, done several SS boat fuel tanks etc. I have just never done Alloy Tig,,EVER. Done a bit alloy Mig and alloy oxy though.
My main concern due to this ignorance was to buy a 240v machine and find out it would not do what I want?
I may need to spot touch up some combustion chambers too, if they show any voids or pockets when I machine them after welding with mig. I will go back to Imgur phone app now and show you what I mean.
Thanks, Mick.
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My mate(a top boilermaker) did the one on the left.... I did the one on the one on the right, with his unimig. Mig welder.
Gebus they were hot ;D
(https://i.imgur.com/bACCvjo.jpg)
It would be great if this machine would be capable to touch up any holes?
Sure I got all the oil out? and could always run back to his joint and spot it with the Mig I suppose.
Thanks guys,, I feel a bit more confident now :) Mick.
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Good choice Mick. I've just gone and had a look at mine and it is a Unimig.
I've had the best success with welding engine components by boiling them in water prior to welding, continually changing the water until the oily contaminants disappear. I also (rightly or wrongly) use 5% Mg rods as I believe motorcycle components have a certain amount of Mg in their makeup, but Geoff would know more about this and may be able to offer some input.
If you've oxy welded aluminium you will have no trouble at all tig welding it - can't wait to see some of your work.
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I started alloy tig welding about 40 years ago using one of these.
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0004-5000686/engineering-and-toolmaking/sheet-metal-welder-emf-pilot-arc-6-5-kva-150-amps-415-volt-3-phase-po
Add says 150 amp but they are actually 200 amp, a few years after buying my first one I got a second and joined them together and had a 400 amp AC high frequency welder.
They were in service doing repairs on mainly Harley engine cases and heads up until about 5 years ago when I picked up a new 350 amp inverter machine that was made in China and it has worked well in that time.
I stopped doing the Harley shit just after buying the new welder as I just got sick of welding and dealing with the shops.
A good 200 amp welder sounds like it will do all you want but the foot pedal are really only good if you can sit at a welding table, I have one with the new welder but hardly use it.
Someone was talking about filler rod earlier. You will need atleast 3 types if you are to play with bike stuff. I mainly use 5% silicon on cases as it is the lowest melting point, the 5% mag is the strongest and machines better but is more prone to cracking on cooling, pure magnesium also comes in handy but it is expensive and hard to get.
With the Gas. Boc do a deal with the D size[small] bottles where you pay $108 rental a year and get 1 free fill of gas a year. Bunning have it now as well with a $200 refundable deposit on the cylinder and no rental. I still pay the $240 year rental on the E size argon as I go through a bit and it is about half the price for the gas in the big bottles.
Good luck and do plenty of practise before doing your big fin head.
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Whilst I am sure Pete will help with advice Mick I throw a bit in as I have done the big fin head myself. I used 20x3 flat bar cut roughly to length. Best to give the edge you are welding a quick run over with a flapdisk. Prepare everything and do a dummy run clamps etc all ready to go. Pre heat the head till when you spit on it, it sizzles. I would use a 2.4 tungsten and 10mm shroud set the square arc to narrow to help stop the tip boiling, Run the gas a little higher around 18 to help cool the tip.
The welder looks fine to me , I have a correct 15amp power outlet for my welders.
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You will need a 15 Amp plug and a dedicated 4mm2 circuit unless you like running out to the power box a lot. Plenty of people file the earth pin down so it fits in a 10amp GPO but normal wiring is only 1.5mm2
Don't know who wired your place Lozza, but power is run in 2.5mm2 cable, good for up to 20A.
A typo ::)................ still need a stand alone circuit and might as well do that properly with 4mm2 and a 15A plug.
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Quote. I still pay the $240 year rental on the E size argon as I go through a bit and it is about half the price for the gas in the big bottles.
Sleepy it's probably worth getting in touch with BOC about changing to a size G cylinder. At the moment they are doing deals on both the small size D cyl as you mentioned but also with the large size G. I signed up last year for the G for $249 rent per year but that includes a free cylinder swap each year as well as giving me a free cyl when I signed up. This means 2 free swaps in the first year and one per year after that, I just have to remember to swat the first one over before the end of July, whether it's empty or not. This may be for new customers so you might have to close your old account when your current cyl is empty and then sign up for the new deal.
Let us know how you get on.
Zane
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Ac Dc inverter pulse WSME 200 tig ( pro weld product ) Yes its made in China, but it has served me well over the past 8 years and very pleased with its
performance S/steel ...aliminium ... magnesium ...mildsteel .
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Quote. I still pay the $240 year rental on the E size argon as I go through a bit and it is about half the price for the gas in the big bottles.
Sleepy it's probably worth getting in touch with BOC about changing to a size G cylinder. At the moment they are doing deals on both the small size D cyl as you mentioned but also with the large size G. I signed up last year for the G for $249 rent per year but that includes a free cylinder swap each year as well as giving me a free cyl when I signed up. This means 2 free swaps in the first year and one per year after that, I just have to remember to swat the first one over before the end of July, whether it's empty or not. This may be for new customers so you might have to close your old account when your current cyl is empty and then sign up for the new deal.
Let us know how you get on.
Zane
My body/back complains about the weight of the E size when it's time to take it for a refill so unfortunately a G is out of the question. I may end up going down to the D form Bunnings as I have done for my Oxy/act or perhaps Boc. I got a D argoshield for the Mig from Boc this time and will see how it costs out. The gas in the D is double the cost of the E but for $108 a year you get 1 free fill.
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BOC. I signed up last year for the GIANT for $249 rent per year but that includes a free cylinder swap each year as well as giving me a free cyl when I signed up. This means 2 free swaps in the first year and one per year after that.
Zane
Thanks Zane. Immediate money saved is king. This is the way I will be going if still available. One free "Giant" fill a year included in $249 rent is good. Gasweld is $199 for a Giant fill.
1-How much for a fill if I use heaps and require spot fills/exchanges?
2-what if I want to return the bottle anytime? Is there a penalty?
Cheers, Mick.
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Ac Dc inverter pulse WSME 200 tig ( pro weld product ) Yes its made in China, but it has served me well over the past 8 years and very pleased with its
performance S/steel ...aliminium ... magnesium ...mildsteel .
Thanks Oldfart, 8 happy years is a good run considering nearly everything affordable comes from China anyhow. That is a cheap run too, but already have the uniming on the way with 3.5 years warranty? cheers.
Good choice Mick. I've just gone and had a look at mine and it is a Unimig.
use 5% Mg rods as I believe motorcycle components have a certain amount of Mg in their makeup, but Geoff would know more about this and may be able to offer some input.
If you've oxy welded aluminium you will have no trouble at all tig welding it - can't wait to see some of your work.
Thanks Pete, nothing like added Pressure ;D ;D Yeah I hope it turns out to be a good choice. Stayed up most of that first night reading opinions etc from all over the web,,, they seem to have a great wrap and are rebranded as others. Order done :)
Nice to know 5%mg works for you. I will be trying it. Cheers.
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Whilst I am sure Pete will help with advice Mick I throw a bit in as I have done the big fin head myself. I used 20x3 flat bar cut roughly to length. Best to give the edge you are welding a quick run over with a flapdisk. Prepare everything and do a dummy run clamps etc all ready to go. Pre heat the head till when you spit on it, it sizzles. I would use a 2.4 tungsten and 10mm shroud set the square arc to narrow to help stop the tip boiling, Run the gas a little higher around 18 to help cool the tip.
The welder looks fine to me , I have a correct 15amp power outlet for my welders.
Thanks Mick, I was hoping you would weigh in 8)
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I started alloy tig welding about 40 years ago using one of these.
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0004-5000686/engineering-and-toolmaking/sheet-metal-welder-emf-pilot-arc-6-5-kva-150-amps-415-volt-3-phase-po
Add says 150 amp but they are actually 200 amp, a few years after buying my first one I got a second and joined them together and had a 400 amp AC high frequency welder.
They were in service doing repairs on mainly Harley engine cases and heads up until about 5 years ago when I picked up a new 350 amp inverter machine that was made in China and it has worked well in that time.
I stopped doing the Harley shit just after buying the new welder as I just got sick of welding and dealing with the shops.
A good 200 amp welder sounds like it will do all you want but the foot pedal are really only good if you can sit at a welding table, I have one with the new welder but hardly use it.
Someone was talking about filler rod earlier. You will need atleast 3 types if you are to play with bike stuff. I mainly use 5% silicon on cases as it is the lowest melting point, the 5% mag is the strongest and machines better but is more prone to cracking on cooling, pure magnesium also comes in handy but it is expensive and hard to get.
With the Gas. Boc do a deal with the D size[small] bottles where you pay $108 rental a year and get 1 free fill of gas a year. Bunning have it now as well with a $200 refundable deposit on the cylinder and no rental. I still pay the $240 year rental on the E size argon as I go through a bit and it is about half the price for the gas in the big bottles.
Good luck and do plenty of practise before doing your big fin head.
Valuable! thanks Sleepy 8)
Your not going to believe this,,, I have one of those EMF "pilot Arcs" buried in the shed,,, did a lot of steel etc with it in the day, then bought it of my employer when we decommissioned the site. Still no 415v power at home though ::) ::) ::) ::) see if I can get close enough for a pic,,,
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Exactly the same welder Sleepy ;D
Great welder for steel... loved it.
My dream is to live long enough to restore it when I move to a new place with 415.
(https://i.imgur.com/PHPAXBo.jpg)
Thanks Sleepy
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(https://i.imgur.com/FTWVQQZ.jpg)
They still seem to pull good money. 2 on Gumtree ATM for $700 each.
Mine had a seperate HF box for Alloy welding.. it was missing when I went to pick it up.... >:( >:( life is full of theives ::)
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(https://i.imgur.com/FTWVQQZ.jpg)
They still seem to pull good money. 2 on Gumtree ATM for $700 each.
Mine had a seperate HF box for Alloy welding.. it was missing when I went to pick it up.... >:( >:( life is full of theives ::)
They originally had the HF built in. The switch on the front turns it on and off and there are points that arc attached to that panel just above the switch. There were seperate HF unit available which may have been used if the built in unit failed. I have a seperate AC/DC convertor for my one which enabled DC TIG for stainless steel.
They are a fantastic arc welder even compared to modern welders. Pity no 415 power.
Local welding shop years ago keep getting complaints from a female welder that the HF from these old things if poorly adjusted would shock her through her tits if she got to close to the job. Had a friend touch the work when the HF was on years ago with my one and he thought he was going to die, I must have gotten used to it as it would give me a bit of all the time. It is only 3000 volts don't understand why they didn't like it.
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Arhh, Ok thats what the box was,,, an AC/DC converter,,, because I was making S/S boat tanks at work :)
I got a lot to do,,, hope I live for another 40 years ;D ;D ::)
I love the way you worked in the story about the Tits ;D ;D ;D ::) well done Sleepy :D 8)
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Had a friend touch the work when the HF was on years ago with my one and he thought he was going to die, I must have gotten used to it as it would give me a bit of all the time. It is only 3000 volts don't understand why they didn't like it.
[/quote]
Now I know why your hair grows so well.
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Ive got a BOC smooth arc, its oky doky and yep its made in china, you can buy them from BOC now for $1,163 ( and yes I paid more for mine) just out of interest has anyone welded aluminum with DC ?
what electrode types do you guys use ? Ive been using zirconiated
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Mine had a seperate HF box for Alloy welding.. it was missing when I went to pick it up.... >:( >:( life is full of theives ::)
Mick, pretty sure I've got one of those boxes at my other house - you're welcome to it if you want it,
Pete.
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Ive got a BOC smooth arc, its oky doky and yep its made in china, you can buy them from BOC now for $1,163 ( and yes I paid more for mine) just out of interest has anyone welded aluminum with DC ?
what electrode types do you guys use ? Ive been using zirconiated
Pretty sure DC is no good for alloy. I think from memory(which is not to good) it has something to do with need to break down the oxide layer on the ally.
Zirconiated is for aluminium and thoriated for S/steel or steel. There is a newish one around I think is muriated which will do both. Haven't tried the muriated as I like to stick with things I now which is probably why I only upgraded my welder a few years ago.
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I love the way you worked in the story about the Tits ;D ;D ;D ::) well done Sleepy :D 8)
Back when I heard the story a female welder was as rare as male nurse, now anything goes what is the world coming to!!
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These old EMF welders were good value, my father bought one like this long before I was born, its been in the family longer than I have! I used it for quite a few years when I first started but now its just a bench to hold up the radio and phone. Haven't been able to plug it in for many years now, decades even.
Yes they are 200 amps but the Miller inverter 200 I switched to was more powerful and has a smoother arc.
They are actually 2 phase-480 volts, they only use 2 of the 3 phase legs and this option can be found in some places that don't have 3 phase.
Those DC converters were sort after decades ago, I was going to buy one once but they were over a grand new and rarely came up for grabs, times change and DC welders are now as common as mud
(http://res2.graysonline.com/handlers/imagehandler.ashx?t=sh&id=290967&s=n&index=0&ts=634450119640300000)
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You need AC to TIG alloy, as Sleepy says its to lift the oxides so you can create and control the weld pool.
When the Alternating current flows to the electrode it lifts the oxides and when it flows towards the work piece it creates the weld pool
Normally AC alternates 50 times a second (the electrical gurus here might know better than me), but the modern welders can vary higher and lower than this which creates different advantages when welding.
I find it hard to fathom how it can change so often every second but then I also find it hard to imagine how a four stroke valve can open and close 5000 times a minute :o
Zirconiated tungstens are the go for AC welding
Thoriated tungstens used to be the go for DC welding but the 2% of thorium in them has been deemed dangerous when grinding them so they are getting harder to find as Retailers/manufacturers now try to avoid them
Alternatives are now Lanthanated and Circoniated which I beleive can be used on both AC & DC
I have been using the Lanthanated for DC now for quite a few years but still use the Zirconiated for AC
Also note that you should reverse the polarity of you DC machine when you want to arc weld, this is due to the electrode flow, when TIG welding you want the workpiece to absorb the heat and save the non consumable electrode but when arc welding you want the consumable electrode to absorb the heat to melt into the workpiece.
Some modern machines can do this with a switch rather than physically swapping the leads over.
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Have a nice 3 phase tig welder for sale if any one needs one.
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Only recently found out the application for DC aluminum welding, it is used for thick jobs as it penetrates the job extremely well with out distortion, can be used for critical welds and Xray tested to a very high standard, its not some thing I would be doing
please see the forum I was sent to on the subject forum.weldingtipsandtricks.com like I said ive been welding for years and just only found this out myself (just thought very interesting)
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what was the lady welders nickname???
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Mine had a seperate HF box for Alloy welding.. it was missing when I went to pick it up.... >:( >:( life is full of theives ::)
Mick, pretty sure I've got one of those boxes at my other house - you're welcome to it if you want it,
Pete.
That would be awesome thanks Pete :)
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I have had a couple of looks at that welding forum you put up Shelpi,, lots of good stuff there, Thanks.
You too thanks Geoff and Sleepy,, I will be certainly reading all this over for supply choices etc when I start.
Cheers 8)
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I started alloy tig welding about 40 years ago using one of these.
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0004-5000686/engineering-and-toolmaking/sheet-metal-welder-emf-pilot-arc-6-5-kva-150-amps-415-volt-3-phase-po
Add says 150 amp but they are actually 200 amp, a few years after buying my first one I got a second and joined them together and had a 400 amp AC high frequency welder.
They were in service doing repairs on mainly Harley engine cases and heads up until about 5 years ago when I picked up a new 350 amp inverter machine that was made in China and it has worked well in that time.
I stopped doing the Harley shit just after buying the new welder as I just got sick of welding and dealing with the shops.
A good 200 amp welder sounds like it will do all you want but the foot pedal are really only good if you can sit at a welding table, I have one with the new welder but hardly use it.
Someone was talking about filler rod earlier. You will need atleast 3 types if you are to play with bike stuff. I mainly use 5% silicon on cases as it is the lowest melting point, the 5% mag is the strongest and machines better but is more prone to cracking on cooling, pure magnesium also comes in handy but it is expensive and hard to get.
With the Gas. Boc do a deal with the D size[small] bottles where you pay $108 rental a year and get 1 free fill of gas a year. Bunning have it now as well with a $200 refundable deposit on the cylinder and no rental. I still pay the $240 year rental on the E size argon as I go through a bit and it is about half the price for the gas in the big bottles.
Good luck and do plenty of practise before doing your big fin head.
Valuable! thanks Sleepy 8)
Your not going to believe this,,, I have one of those EMF "pilot Arcs" buried in the shed,,, did a lot of steel etc with it in the day, then bought it of my employer when we decommissioned the site. Still no 415v power at home though ::) ::) ::) ::) see if I can get close enough for a pic,,,
Started with an EMF as well. Great pie warmers.