OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Davey Crocket on June 05, 2013, 11:19:55 AM
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While I'm waiting to get booted out of hospital lets talk about the best dirt bike engine ever made.....I know Firko will love me for this....my preference is the mighty Yamaha DT1 series of engines.......250/360......started life as a non reed valve motor in 1968 in a trailbike and ended up winning the world 250cc championship in 1973, carried on to become the famous reed valve YZ250/360 A/B.....the power more than doubled over that time, reliability was never an issue....has had more "hop up" parts made for it.....is still widely used today.....has been road raced, beach raced, motocrossed, flat tracked, enduroed (hare and hounds), trialed, desert racer, commutered, trail riden....all with great sucess.....I hope I havent forgotton anything.....whats your poison?
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You said it Joan..And let's not forget that the 360 version was equally as versatile and bulletproof. I doubt that a stronger dirt bike engine has ever been built than the DT1. When Yamaha entered into the dirt bike field they weren't sure of the loads and excesses the engine would handle so they over engineered just about everything. In the years following they gradually "de engineered" their motors to ensure that the secondary spare part market remained healthy. They'd learned pretty fast that they weren't going to sell many spare parts for an engine that was so bulletproof. I've pulled engines apart that have been to hell and back and found the crank and rods to be still usable and still be on original bore. I've never heard of a DT1 gearbox actually failing, only when they drastically lightened the gears for the YZA-B did they introduce an element of possible failure (and even then it was ever so slight). I'm first and foremost a Maico guy but after spending time working on these engines for my various hot rod projects, reckon that Yamaha got it absolutely right back in 1968 with the DT1.
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If we're not confining this to just vintage bikes I think the most recent offering of the KTM/BERG 300 2t would have to be one of the best engines ever to fire a shot! Power like a steam train yet could easily be ridden by anyone due to the amazingly linear deliver, it's so smooth it almost feels like an electric motor!! :o
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My personal fav is the mid 70's KTM 400 with just a few tweaks it can go from electric smooth to arm stretching missile. The KTM 390 whilst the same CC was a different animal and whilst it is no arm stretcher those that know how to set one up will find the best twin shock motor.
Maico 490 just because they are that dam good.
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See how many photo's of the different variations you can come up with Mark.........they truely are dirt bike royalty...... 8)...gee, I forgot...didnt they do a farm bike version aswell?....I wonder what the most obscure use of that engine was?...Chopper maybe ;D.....born to be wild!!!-.
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(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/dt1a_zpsc1a5ee6a.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/dt1a_zpsc1a5ee6a.jpg.html)
My stock DT1
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/DT1FT_zps53a79725.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/DT1FT_zps53a79725.jpg.html)
Flat track
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/dt1fhfirk2_zps79b43d82.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/dt1fhfirk2_zps79b43d82.jpg.html)
Motocross: my 'DT1 from Hell'
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/dt1trick_zps24c3b532.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/dt1trick_zps24c3b532.jpg.html)
DT1 mega trick hot rod
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/dt1rigid_zps47997ed0.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/dt1rigid_zps47997ed0.jpg.html)
DT1 rigid framed flat tracker
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/YamahaDT1motorOMRRAVintageDaze_zps56ec7ea7.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/YamahaDT1motorOMRRAVintageDaze_zps56ec7ea7.jpg.html)
DT1 road racer
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Davey Davey Davey,,,
all this time to think...
hope your doin ok, we'll miss you at Harry'sville.
anyway,
best motor?
i've never really ridden one but the Yammie TT/XT500 donk has gotta rate pretty highly.
there's some real nutters out there doing some amazing things with them from road to hillclimb to sidecars to VMX to commuters to space shuttles... you name it.
and i do like the DT/RT Yammies as well ;D
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If we're not confining this to just vintage bikes I think the most recent offering of the KTM/BERG 300 2t would have to be one of the best engines ever to fire a shot! Power like a steam train yet could easily be ridden by anyone due to the amazingly linear deliver, its not so smooth it almost feels like an electric motor!! :o
I agree on this for the modern era.
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Yea Vandy, I will miss Harry'sville....and your right about the TT500 style motor....I think it was in production for 20 odd years....and raced in all the forms.....maybe even at Bonneville I think also.....its funny how engines that where designed and built as low power/cost units end up being some of the best engines ever.
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the Honda XR motor (s) were pretty good also?
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85 CR500 Loads of grunt but still flexible enough to trail ride
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Not a Yamaha guy, but the Dit1 would certainly be at the top of the list - if shaded, perhaps only by the ubiquitous Sachs 125 engine in the 9 & 11 speed variations .... one does count the neutral between each gear don;t they when discussing these engines? :P
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Pick any of the Rotax disc valved engines. Pull clean everywhere, lug happily and still have an MX hit up top. Well made too.
Surprised anyone has put up anything different! :D
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Rotax 124/244 Began life as a air cooled engines, ended up water cooled with a add on water pump and a cylinder kit. Used by at least 10 different manufacturers. Used in karts and bikes, and being a disc valve engine, were equaly at home mx,enduro or road race. Oh did I mention the HP? Parts still available new from Rotax. Close second Kawasaki 350/250/125 disc valve family.
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n72/seele_jager/Rotax27.jpg)
Modern 05-07 RM125
** Just beat me to it Can Am great minds think alike ;)
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The DT250 / 360 combo was reliable and popular i had 1 of each
when they first came out.
White tank 250 first then a green tank 360..
But the best bike was the Husky 250 wr and a 360 cr . both early
70
The Stig
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Sorry Firko, you got me going. Gosh [bullet proof DT1's] i must be on a different planet down here [nz], [Brutes we are] just about every DT1 we sold new that got raced had gearbox trouble with rounded off dogs & soft selector drum groove high points. Broke the 1968 coarse tooth third gear & put it out the bottom of my own one & did the same 30 years later with a 360 but running that same type first DT1 box. Liked that gearbox because the ratios right through to top were evenly space where the next [DT1F--on] had like an overdrive top, but i still managed to round off dogs on 3rd & 5th in particular on the later box. Anyway, the first pic up here looks exactly as mine came out of the box, color & all. One day i'll show you what it looks like now [be in the RAT bike forum i think]. Still goes just like it should. I used to run EP90 diff oil in the box to dry & cushion the shock of full song clutchless gearchanges [what a brute] Despite all that i still love em & am still surrounded by various variation of the original 44 years later. "My vote goes toooo mmmm the DT1. ps. few of us broke the square s/rm too, pissed of now i threw the original frame & arm out about 20 years ago. Fk it i took many trailer loads of all sorts of bike junk to the tip back then. Depressed again now. I'll give a plug for my T100 metisse back in "67--now 'that' was bulletproof. Jeez the RH main [which was a press in bush thingy] was so flogged out that it just can't have had 'any' useful oil pressure but didn't worry it a bit & never stopped. Cheers.
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Okay so I know these don't figure too highly on our current hit parade or "must have" bikes but you can't deny the Honda flat single four stroke motor as fitted to early Z50/70/90 and 110 bikes has probably introduced more people to dirt bikes (and bikes in general) than any other motor ever built.
As bullet proof a motor as ever built and able to withstand years and years of abuse yet still start up and take some more. Well done Honda :)
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yes, taking husky's, back in my metisse days. When Gunnar Lindstrom was down here, we were out practicing or marking out a local club event for the weekend as i recall & he said here, do a few laps on this. [semi works 360 or maybe just one out of the box but think he bought it with him after doing Xmas Hills] anyway ruined me for life that did & basically felt half the weight & twice as powerful as the metisse. I was right confused after that i was.
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talking honda 50's [pushrod model] hell we had one for a 'tow bike' to tow in bikes from around town that broke down. It got DEATH but once again--never gave up. Can't say quite the same for the Honda 55 pushrod farm bikes we sold [before ct90's]as the Brute kiwi farmer used to 'twist' the gearbox mainshaft [or layshaft] through it's length & couldn't change gears [wouldn't slide along]. Still vote for them though as just Great motors & not designed for 20 stone size 14 boots riders with no feel for poor little motor, Around town riders on honda 50's had a problem with condensation in the [never changed] oil & the selector drum, being high up used to go rusty to the point of not changing gear. Change the oil & put a T bar on the selector drum retaining bolt [above final drive sprocket], give it a few whizzes back & forth to free it up & all good for a year. [I vote Honda this time--being greedy]
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85 CR500 Loads of grunt but still flexible enough to trail ride
All watercooled CR500 engines! best 2t of all time.
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Suzuki 250 TS -RL -TM Donk they don't come any tougher or reliable....
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Pick any of the Rotax disc valved engines. Pull clean everywhere, lug happily and still have an MX hit up top. Well made too.
Surprised anyone has put up anything different! :D
Having ridden a few Rotax engined bikes of late I would have to agree.
The CanAm I borrowed for Tallarook had an impressive motor, pulled nice down low and still had good power up top, very smooth
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I totally agree about the Yamahas but what about the old XR75? Absolutely bullet-proof.
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I reckon one of the best dirt bike motors would have to be the Rotax disc valve.
From the early 70s though. They were still holding there own in the late 80s.
I would say you could do a list of bikes as long as the Yamaha motor. Was there anything they weren't used in?
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Agree with the DT/RT yamahas, but..... in the 125 VMX stakes I would go straight for the Suzuki TM125. Maybe not the power of the Honda's or even the RM's but go out race all the season without piles and piles of repairs, tuning and general expensive time consuming crap. (Sorry about TM400.......
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The KDX 250 83- 85would be my all time 2 stroke motor favourite, tractor like low down running through a flatish strong surge that was so easy to ride. Pity about the brakes... :-\
But....but nothing beats the early air cooled 500 husky 4 strokes. They rewrote the book on stunning hp, huge flexibility and an exhaust note that made the xr and tt's sound like a step thru. Once you learnt to start them of course ;), they were fantastic. I got banned from a club event on one once because I was waiting for the club 4/ champ on his sponsored xr 600 to catch up so I had someone to race... it would have cost him the championship if I had beaten him?? I cant figure it out either but it put me off club racing that's for sure. the old boys club syndrome is pretty petty.
But that husky motor, what a stunner, smooth bottom end, quite responsive, not all inertia like the TT and XR's were but building to a 125 rush when the cams cut in..... Woo Hoo.... :D ;D
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When I first saw this thread, I straight away thought of the rotary disc Rotax motor. Used in Can Am, SWM, ATK and probably plenty of other brands that I can't think of at the moment (like Portal). The 250 in particular makes a broad range of power that would give most big bores a hurry up. But I also later thought about the '83 Husky 500/510 fourstroke. Most people seem to credit/blame the Yamaha '98 YZ400F for the start of the latest fourstroke revolution. But I think that the Husky 510 was the start of the modern competitive fourstroke. I may be drawing a long bow, but I think that even the latest KTM fourstrokes can trace their heritage back through Husaberg , Husky 610s and right back to the original Thomas Gustavsson designed Husqvarna air-cooled fourstroke.
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I reckon one of the best dirt bike motors would have to be the Rotax disc valve.
From the early 70s though. They were still holding there own in the late 80s.
Then went on to crush the opposition in road racing, the air cooled Can Am/Gori/Aprilia/SWM/Kramer/Puch 125cc engine eventualy(through the type 128/129 evolutions) became the basis of the the Aprilia RSW 125.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/1087_195834043901414_1378605146_n_zpsfb40d828.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/Lozza85_2007/media/1087_195834043901414_1378605146_n_zpsfb40d828.jpg.html)
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/969539_4955909741568_1968921674_n_zpsc27722c3.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/Lozza85_2007/media/969539_4955909741568_1968921674_n_zpsc27722c3.jpg.html)
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/1118011156-1.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/Lozza85_2007/media/1118011156-1.jpg.html)
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/970723_553434991366645_371296191_n_zps36ef200f.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/Lozza85_2007/media/970723_553434991366645_371296191_n_zps36ef200f.jpg.html)
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If we're not confining this to just vintage bikes I think the most recent offering of the KTM/BERG 300 2t would have to be one of the best engines ever to fire a shot! Power like a steam train yet could easily be ridden by anyone due to the amazingly linear deliver, its not so smooth it almost feels like an electric motor!! :o
I agree on this for the modern era.
Bingo !!
The Maico brigade are quite ?
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All the Euros are quiet except for Rotax, not too many Hondas getting a cap except little 4 strokes and the mighty CR500.
All of the Yams have gearbox issues
Most impressive are the rotary disc valve engines
Not many big 4 strokes getting a gong
Good thread though ;D
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Zabel (http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad360/tdee754/zabel_zpsca99aab7.jpg) (http://s951.photobucket.com/user/tdee754/media/zabel_zpsca99aab7.jpg.html)
URL=http://s951.photobucket.com/user/tdee754/media/zabel-motoren_zpsd109bb2e.jpg.html](http://i951.photobucket.com/albums/ad360/tdee754/zabel-motoren_zpsd109bb2e.jpg)[/URL]
Zabel 700cc and yes it's heritage is from ...Maico...engines so the rumors go ;)
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Yamaha 125 TWIN , that had to be fun,
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Bit of a hijack but in summarizing the motors leads to bikes etc and thats a whole new thread.
I rode honda 4 strokes from 17 to 20 y/old but then moved to competition and quickly understood the shortcomings of the big bore fourstrokes especially on hills in competition conditions. They had to be ridden like a 125 due to the power strokes.
Until the Husky 510 came along, i was a two stroke convert (PE, KDX and WR Husky 250's) purely on the basis that the motors helped on hills, would upshift on a hill and generally found traction in critical situations that saw me get to the end of an enduro (the general aim ;))
The Husky just allowed you to blast through stuff and provided a level of throttle control that was an enlightenment to a lapsed 4 stroker and it literally raised the bar to all the manufacturers to produce an actual light, responsive powerfull fourbanger that we get today.
i still ride twoies.....4 bangers are still too heavy (weight up high)and at 55y/o the power wears me out so im still in the 300 cc camp as just stunning motors for getting up hills over logs through poo pits etc at a pace that the younger guys dont have to wait too much.... not too much ;D :D yeah the motors are cold when i get there.... :-[
Those rotary valve 2 strokes are something else ! i learnt to ride on a rotary valve 2/ and it was good bike for a wally beginner ....
here is me taxi... il be on my way!
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I've ridden with you John, i certainly don't remember ME doing much waiting around for YOU :D!!
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I'm with Rookie on the Modern KTM 300 2 Stroke, great engine, and for the old ones, what about an RZ 250-350 Banshee or what ever you want to call them, still in production today....
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The 2 Valve ESO and early Jawa's.
Speedway, Longtrack, Grasstrack, Dirttrack, MX, Road Racing and even used in Sidecars on all of the above.
They were a reliable weapon.
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Actually when you think about it, Yamaha where on some real winners in the late 60's early 70's....the RD style motors won everything road racing for years, the DT1 style did the same, XS and TT also but the big thing was there longliveity....a lot of great engines came and went in very short periods of time. Another engine family that had a long distinguished career was that original KX 250 motor in 74...became a 400....was in the KT trials bikes, went from non reed to reed valve in the 78 KX 250 A4 and when the "uni track" came out in 1980 the basics where still there....right up to 83 when they went to water cooling. Those XR50 and Pee Wee 50. motors certainly started a lot of careers....shit that Honda motor is nearly 50 years old
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KLX 250
Never scared any learners ;D
Was also used in Quad bikes
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All the Euros are quiet except for Rotax, not too many Hondas getting a cap except little 4 strokes and the mighty CR500.
All of the Yams have gearbox issues
Most impressive are the rotary disc valve engines
Not many big 4 strokes getting a gong
Good thread though ;D
The Rotax 4 stroke. Excellent motor. The KTM RFS 4 stroke from 2000 to 2007.
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KLX 250??? was again a massive disappointment considering its looks and potential, the engineer misread the specs on the design sheet..... it said 30HP he read 3.0
They were a classic XR 200--- you could ride them fast cause they had no power...
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yeah evo550 the Maico brigade are a bit quite on this one, but then again they are a humble lot..lol
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The mighty JAP wins hands down. 500cc of pure 4 stroke magic. Dominated world speedway,longtrack,grasstrack,
Aussie dirt track/short circuit etc. etc. from around 1928 until the early '70's,and that's just the 500. Then you have the 350cc
engine and the 880cc V twin. Just beautiful motors.
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Surely the SL100/CRF230 motor rates a mention?
Ditto the Z50 donk, that's been in production for fifty years, copied by Yamaha and Suzuki as well as the Chinese. 3 speed, 4 speed, auto clutch, manual clutch, 50cc, 165cc, etc.
I'm no real fan, but the Yamaha YZF250 motor is a good 'un - same basic donk since 2001, and unquestionably the most reliable/longest lasting performance 250F motor out there.
The KX500 motor would surely also rate - same basic architecture from 1985 to 2004, super easy to ride, still Fast by modern standards.
Or maybe the 1977+ YZ125/DT175 donk. Light, compact, ultra reliable, with a good six speed box and an almost thirty year production run.
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The real answer is 2013 Beta 300.
To quote discobob: "I've spent a year fiddling with my KTM300, and the stock standard Beta is at least as good".
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For how long is the Beta Betta for Nathan, LO
the KTM300 is bulletproof.
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A BIGGUN BUT WHY?
From my fading memory bank and long ago English Motor Cycle Newspaper. Maico had a 700 and it was entered in the ISDT 6day competition,I'm guessing about late 60's,this was when the factory teams would have mechanics and fresh bikes jump out from behind trees in the forests of Europe. How you would kick it even with a decompressor is beyond me,never mind the power.
That newspaper was weekly delivered into Aust and was the best ever,too bad about my tech study,it had it all.
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my 500 matchy was 'so' reliable that when it broke the oil feed pipe to the valve gear i just bent it & tucked it under the tappet cover [pushrod big cover] & carried on for the rest of the ride. Broke at the start of the day while leaving town but buggered if i was going to go home & have all my mates carry on. Not sure how it survived but wasn't complaining at the end. My vote today goes to the AMC range of motors [till i think of something else], even ran a matchy rod in my B33 coz i broke two bsa rods with a hell of a mess. While i'm at it, my metisse T100/5TA box would have to be bullet proof. We used to have Le'Man starts [if that's what it's called], think someone held the bike with motor running then we'd run as the shot gun went off & i'd do a superman leap on while stamping on the gear lever minus clutch at the same time [down for first]. Never heard the "Dogs Barking" or complaining.
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production run and model span doesn't make a great engine. thats just company policy and engineering. race or gp wins and world titles is what counts.
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Lozza, that sounds like the car magazines COTY award bullshit. Give them a great write up in the mag OR worse have a win at Bathurst and we'll sell 'em like hot cakes.
My line of business is to repair cars that have been sold to folk on false promise and to keep them running ....without send the poor buggers broke.
Too many of them are ripped off at the sales end...new and used and then have to live with the consequences.
A good engine is one that lasts past the manufactures expirey date and goes on to be used in plenty of different models.
Ask a new owner of a Captiva what they reckon at the gas station. Ask an owner of any of the new generation of Nissans with French engines...they will be verbally sick all over you.
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race or gp wins and world titles is what counts.
You have to be kidding Lozza....So you reckon a motor has to be a winner on the race track to be a good engine? I doubt that many races have been won with the 4.7l V8 in my Jeep Grand Cherokee but I bet that engine will still be running hard in another 200 000k....much longer than the tin box it lives in ::). Moving back to dirt bikes, the DT175-200 wouldn't have won many GP's to my knowledge but how many million of them are still running without a hint of trouble throughout the world? Methinks you might read too many magazines Lozza.
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Ask an owner of any of the new generation of Nissans with French engines...they will be verbally sick all over you.
Apologies for getting off topic however it's interesting you say that. My Aunt purchased a new Ford Territory with the Peugot V6 and it dropped it's lunch at 7000kms ..... and then Ford wouldn't warranty it ... nice one ::)
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I'm with you Firko, an engine proves itself by it's longlivity and ability to be modified and all the various applications its used for...shit, look at the 283 Chev engine, was never designed as a race engine but evolved into probably the worlds most winningest engine....302....327...350.....you name it and it got used for it....bit like the DT1.
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The small block Chevrolet would have to be the best engine ever made period. All of the manufacturers have made engines to challenge it, some came pretty close, but 55 years later the old small block is still going strong on and off the track.........apologies for the sidetrack
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/drag-1_zps11539053.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/drag-1_zps11539053.jpg.html)
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race or gp wins and world titles is what counts.
You have to be kidding Lozza....So you reckon a motor has to be a winner on the race track to be a good engine? I doubt that many races have been won with the 4.7l V8 in my Jeep Grand Cherokee but I bet that engine will still be running hard in another 200 000k....much longer than the tin box it lives in ::). Moving back to dirt bikes, the DT175-200 wouldn't have won many GP's to my knowledge but how many million of them are still running without a hint of trouble throughout the world? Methinks you might read too many magazines Lozza.
I don't read car/bike magazines at all these days, your average Toyota diesel engine will do about 400,000 km without a spanner put to it, but that doesn't make them the best engine ever fitted to a car. DT 200 is a good engine as I have said before but a long long way from the best engine. A DT 175 engine is a complete shitter. The reason a DT 175 runs for ages is they make no power and never will. A few learners and kids running round paddocks won't find the limitations of an engine(or a bike) like international level rider in international competition.
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Lozza, using the same logic, outright race track performance is only one criteria involved in what makes a great engine. In fact, I think race track performance would be the least important facet of a successful engine design. The most important aspects of an engines design is performance at a number of differing criteria such as acceleration, torque, tractability, reliability, economy and ease of maintenance. Some of the best ever race engines such as the Cosworth V8, Offenhauser, Renault F1 engine, Keith Black top fuel engine and many more are brilliant at what they were designed for but would fail miserably at most other tasks. It's a horses for courses thing but to me the mark of a good engine is one that can be adapted to perform any number of differing tasks with reliability and ease of maintenance. The basic pushrod Chevrolet small block V8 ticks every box for car engines being used in everything from trucks and taxi's to Grand Prix winning open wheelers, pro stock drag cars and all points in between. The simple two stroke air cooled DT1 Yamaha single fills the dirt bike aspect of what an engine can produce with smart and steady development. It powered countless commuter bikes in the seventies, introduced a generation of baby boomers to the joys of dirt bike riding that continues today, has powered everything from American short trackers, Aussie sliders, road racers and even the TY Yamaha trials engine is pretty damn close. The engine even achieved a world motocross Championship in 1973.....all from the same basic 1968 design. Both engines have one common denominator.........versatility, and that's what I think makes a great engine.
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To quote Firko " It's a horses for courses thing but to me the mark of a good engine is one that can be adapted to perform any number of differing tasks with reliability and ease of maintenance"." versatility, and that's what I think makes a great engine " regarding the DT250 Yamaha, That is exactly my reasoning's for selecting the Triumph Unit (and pre unit) 650 and the Honda K/F series CB750 Fours.
Is your selection versatile ? ie. Motocross/scrambles, enduro, trials ,trail rides, road racing, speedway ,long track ,short circuit, AMA flat track, ice speedway , rallying, hill climbs, drag racing etc etc
Reliable ? or does it need a fleet of factory technicians to rebuild it after ...every...outing.
Can you preform the basic maintenance it needs ?
Maybe add these items to your thought trains.
Could you race bog stock as you received it from the shop or did you have waste lots of time and money to try to make it work for you?
How was the power delivery and the handling ? ( to be fair think relative to the era ) . Cheers Tim754
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For how long is the Beta Betta for Nathan, LO
the KTM300 is bulletproof.
So far, so good. Did I mention the starter motor works too? ;D
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The real answer is 2013 Beta 300.
To quote discobob: "I've spent a year fiddling with my KTM300, and the stock standard Beta is at least as good".
It's only as good, because like all the other 300 manufacturers, Beta are trying to emulate the KTM.
Who is "Discobob"
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Tim's correct about the Triumph 650 and by default the Yamaha 650....used in all application (including pumps and saw benches) and can be bombed to the hilt. Also the Norton to some degree. That must make the 650 parallel twin something of a 'right' design.
The GR650 motor I've just fitted is the next evolution of that same design although by the time it was built the V twins had become smaller/more compact and could be fitted into the same space. Time will tell how they go. ( I think HD are working on one :D :D :D :D)
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As the owner of both 500 and 650 unit Trumpy motors I agree that it's been a hearty, well designed motor only let down by the sixties and early seventies British engineering death wish. I knew nothing about Triumphs until I had a lookie inside my little T100SC 500 and saw how simple a design can produce such great performance. The 650 has yet to be pulled down but their reputation speaks for itself. The Trumpy is the DT1 and small block Chev of four stroke motorcycle motors......versatile (there's that word again)
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Firko, here's a project for you in relation to T100/5TA motors. Probably mentioned it before but my 'long legged' RT1 frame had--had a 3TA in it when i bought it. Never actually saw it fitted but had to smack the downtubes back a bit with the old farm wooden sledge hammer but looked like no mounts were altered. Funny the things that come back [memory], when i was there at christmas hills in late "67 i'm sure i saw a unit 500 motor in a lightweight metisse frame, looked good too. Like i say--long ago & might be wrong. Cheers. ps, talking tyre pressures on another forum, i recall Tim [Gibbes] with the DT1 straight out of the box & into a muddy mx still with the 19 trail tyre on front, took the valve out & threw it away, put cap on & proceeded to run rings around all of us. psyched us all right out that did!! He knew we were all watching & thinking that'll never work so double psyched us all when it did. [desperate measures that day for the slippery going probably more than mud in hindsight].
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What is the best motor fitted to a dirt bike (motocross). There is only one answer 490 Maico. If you haven't owned or ridden one you can't really comment. When Kawasaki were trying to perfect their 500s they tried to make it like the 490. Of course the reed valve motor is the best but even the others are great. If you think they aren't the best then why are there probably more 490 Maicos around now than there were in 1981/2.
Maicos rule
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The 490 motor is in reality the flow on end result of a motor born in the fifties. The engine is indeed the ultimate air cooled 2T big single and as Kato47 wrote, if you haven't ridden one you can't really knock it. I guarantee that once you do ride a 490 you'll finally understand what all of the hype is about. It's just a shame that Maico was on its arse by 1981 and its demise set for good in 1982 by biased and unfair reviews in the American motopress. It's interesting to find when looking back that the European, British and Aussie mags were far less critical of the '82 model and in many cases wrote that it was better than the '81. But I'm waffling...............imagine what Maico could have come up with if they'd been financially fluid moving along into the 80's and 90's? The next generation 490 engine, the 1983/4 SC500 was so much better than the legendary piston port 490 but the damage was done and nobody wanted a bar of Maico by then, opening the door to the Honda CR500 era (another great engine).
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Thanks Firko. Although my bike is a twin shock it is a reed valve motor. Also which bikes bring the most money when selling. My guess would be Maico 490s. You can buy a brand new 490 from Maico only in the UK if you have 9,000.00 pounds.
I also have a 2000 RWJ 500, yes it isn't classic mx yet. It has a similar powerband to the Maico ie from idle to changing up no real kick, just smooth power. However it keeps revving where the Maico stops. Really it is too much for MX.
Also my handle doesn't stand for the bike brand.
Kevin.T.M
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Thanks Firko. Although my bike is a twin shock it is a reed valve motor. Also which bikes bring the most money when selling. My guess would be Maico 490s. You can buy a brand new 490 from Maico only in the UK if you have 9,000.00 pounds.
Back in the day I had a twin shock 1982 GS 490 that had a reed cylinder. When I bought it I thought they all had reed cylinders but I soon learned that it was fairly unusual when total strangers rang me asking if I'd sell it. I put a lot of miles into that bike, and even rode it to work every day for a while when I wrote my car off. I eventually had my life changing mega crash on it destroying my ankle and putting me out of bikes for almost two years. I sold it to a young guy in Hawkesbury club who lived in Sydney's Blacktown and never saw it again. Damn I'd love that bike today ::).
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I rode the first w/c 500 maico years ago and found it to be a great engine, soft at the bottom for no hopers like me but plenty of go for the full throttle boys (all 3 of them ;D)
I rode a 250 twin shock recently and it just reminded me of how good they turn in... sweeet
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Seems that this is probably more like a list of personal favourites!
Largely depending on the 'time frame'
Going back a bit my thoughts go with specials using B31s, Goldies, Ariels, Compy AJAY Matcho, Norton ES2, JAP, etc. then the freakish XTYamaha.
But of the oldies I think the best built, best looking and sometimes most amazing was the old T100 motor.
cheers.
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I think your right there pancho ! And iam going to put a plug in for the humble BSA unit single - starting life in 1960-61 as the 250 c15 and going right thru to the late 70's as that pre 78/evo weapon the mighty CCM ! being used very successfully in every dirt disipline ! including 2 world 500cc mx championships and gold medals in ISDE with Jeff Smith onboard B40 and B44 in 64' and 65' ! not to mension used by police and defense forces from around the world - Cool little donk the beeza ! ;)
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The Yamaha DT/AT/CT/RT motors are the most enduring but for sheer performance and flexibility, I have got to go with the Can Am (Rotax) rotary valve motor. Plonks like a trials bike and top end like a roadracer. Stunning!
Regards
David
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Really if you wanted to name the motor (bike) that has had the biggest effect on Motocross and Enduro, it is the very first YZF400. It changed dirt bikes forever and maybe not for the best. The modern four strokes are harder and more expensive to maintain and they are noisier than two strokes. Right from the first model the YZF400 was 102 DBA from the factory and the YZ250 two stroke was 98 DBA.
Bring back two strokes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Really if you wanted to name the motor (bike) that has had the biggest effect on Motocross and Enduro, it is the very first YZF400. It changed dirt bikes forever and maybe not for the best. The modern four strokes are harder and more expensive to maintain and they are noisier than two strokes. Right from the first model the YZF400 was 102 DBA from the factory and the YZ250 two stroke was 98 DBA.
Bring back two strokes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I had a 426f
Man what a engine but hard to ride.
A art to start also. 1st kick or never!
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Of all the bikes I've owned and ridden I'd have to say the 81 490 Maico motor is the best. Smooth broad and strong power delivery it just does everything right.. only negative is they can be hard to start
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I've been a member of the forum for almost 5 years and never submitted any posts, but on the prompting of Pancho (Wally) here goe's.
After watching Dave Curtis racing the big Matchless G80CS in the late 50s and early 60s,against the best in the UK I reckon that the AMC motor takes some beating. It is still a force to be reckoned with in the right hands and having owned several over a very long time still say that they are as reliable and as quick as any other pre 65 dirt motor including the Triumph T100.
Geoff.
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yes i'd have to agree with Geoff in hindsight even after plugging for my unit 500 metisse. The AMC [in the open class] could stretch them to 600cc & used to make the ground shake. [probably the motor vibration rather than traction haha]. Keith Hickmans Cheney Goldy opened our eyes down here along with John Burton on the T100 unit Metisse two totally opposite bikes & type of rider--but good to watch, [as they lapped me]. I think the Goldy had a twin plug head with one going in through the side between the pushrods [or did i dream that one], would have to surely be a 10mm honda 50 type plug. Used to run a centre plug in my B33 using a honda 50 type 10mm plug. Cheney would have had to run a twin type mag firing both together somehow?. Anyone know? Anyone old enough to remember?--sorry getting off subject. Cheers.
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Okay so I know these don't figure too highly on our current hit parade or "must have" bikes but you can't deny the Honda flat single four stroke motor as fitted to early Z50/70/90 and 110 bikes has probably introduced more people to dirt bikes (and bikes in general) than any other motor ever built.
As bullet proof a motor as ever built and able to withstand years and years of abuse yet still start up and take some more. Well done Honda :)
Bit of a necro hump here but I like the little 'underbone' Honda engines as well; the 50/70's with the points magneto that replaced the C100 pushrod 50/55's rather than the CT90 points on head.
Been made in the 10's of millions since 1965 and fitted to what I reckon was the real progenitor Honda dirtbike, the SL70.
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those 110's are now 125's and still sold in Asian countries where they have plenty of tow to keep up to the congested traffic, in the Philippines their called xrm's and the latest model has mag wheels and a front disc brake. the xr200 is still there as is has been for over 14yrs complete with a electric leg and now front disc and is a favouroit for super moto mods. another motor that's been around for a long time is the xr100 which is bored and stroked to 155cc now and called a tm155 which is a street bike with wire wheels and drum brakes and is used a lot in tricycle duty where the biggest sidecar ive seen on one was in the country or province and had a seating capacity of 16 people between the 4 on the bike including the driver and 12 in the sidecar with plenty of room on top for sacks of rice etc ;D ;D ;D but my favouroit motor of all time would be the 500 thumper motor sold in tt's,xt's and sr's which is still in production for the Japanese market and has been changed very little in all its years of production and were the only non counter balanced true 2 valve 500 thumper's from japan, the others are just wizz bang 4t's ;) ;D ;D
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but my favouroit motor of all time would be the 500 thumper motor sold in tt's,xt's and sr's which is still in production for the Japanese market and has been changed very little in all its years of production and were the only non counter balanced true 2 valve 500 thumper's from japan, the others are just wizz bang 4t's ;) ;D ;D
(http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=8227) (http://www.smiliemania.de/) spot on
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TM400 very user friendly predictable power and great ignition. ;D
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you need help with issue of yours Frosty..you need to spend some time with Big K to get a husky balance on life ;D
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Funny you should say that frosty, just got one of them TM400 5 minutes ago!
Brett
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I hope you realise I am joking post a pic when you get a chance.
On the topic tt and xt500 have a good motor but I think they are pretty heavy I don't mind my 82 xr500 motor wise.
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obviously frosty you've never ridden a 510 aircooled husky 4 banger??
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The old HONDA XR 75 4 banger ultra reliable able to be highly modified to almost double capacity and started many a motocrossers career.......and of course its BIG brother CR500 watercooled 2 banger......WHAT 490 Maico lol
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I would say the Yamaha MX\YZ 400 from 1975 to 1978 , for a big bore it has amazing low end and in the hands of a good rider can also get up and scare the crap out of you . Iain . Frosty I'll raise you the Mighty SC500 against your TM400 .
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Yes good match up Ian.
A lot of the old kids bikes were great engine wise compared to the newer ones now in my opinion I think every one has ridden a xr75.
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Husky 390 (1980 especially) or the 360's are my favorites. The 370SWM enduro I had for a while was also a fantastic thing as was the SWM 440MC (pure grunt, no hit, just easy to use). I think any Euro 300-500 2t is a good thing, unlike a peaky hard to ride Suzuki RM400.
K