-
Searched everywhere for photo's of Jim Pomeroys 1973 250cc Spanish Grand Prix winning bike with zero success. Does anybody know if it's in someones collection or museum somewhere? I think it was modified to the extent it had opaque plastic guards, shoulderless rims, maybe a different rear hub. I also believe it had a taller seat (remember Jim was tall) and maybe a CMS frame according to Geoff Morris at GMC (thanks Geoff)and he was #26 and yes I'm probably going to try to build a replica of the bike. Perhaps a true Pomeroy replica. If anybody can help I would much appreciate it. Cheers Jerry
-
It was a comment in an add from Dirt Rider ( I think 74?)
It seemed like news to them at the time.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/GMC%20parts/CMSframe-1.jpg)
-
Are CMS still in business?
-
Wasn't it in an old issue of VMX mag?
-
Are CMS still in business?
I think they finished up in 75 but I'm not sure.
-
VMX mag #16 has a story on Pomeroys later 1976 bike,way different from the 73 bike I imagine.
-
VMX mag #16 has a story on Pomeroys later 1976 bike,way different from the 73 bike I imagine.
or 28 & 3 for Pomeroy & Bultaco.......................Bultaco's every mag ;) ;D
-
Take a look at this, it may help.
http://www.clubbultaco.com.au/prototypes/models/prototypes/m192-bultaco-pursang-mk-9-250cc-prototype-1974 (http://www.clubbultaco.com.au/prototypes/models/prototypes/m192-bultaco-pursang-mk-9-250cc-prototype-1974)
(http://www.clubbultaco.com.au/media/k2/items/cache/ccb4e23c8aa216f1e96d31ab209c036b_XL.jpg)
-
Thanks Auscobul but that bike (sensational though it is!) is I think from 1976. It's the 1973 GP winning bike I'm after. Cheers Jerry
-
Thanks to you too VMX that shot of the start in VMX3 confirms the rear mudguard, rims and maybe rear hub. Appreciate it. Jerry
-
Hey Jerry,
I sometimes ponder about Jim when he went to Spain for that GP.
I think it was a one-off. And that he was a relatively unknown nobody. He would've had some support
from the factory (of course) but would largely, I suspect, have been on his own.
I can picture him wandering around town ... hanging about ... trying to make
a friend here or there.
If an Aussie had been a backpacker, he could have buddied-up with him no worries, and he'd
have been glad of the company. Can you imagine that - killing a few days with Jim, while waiting for
the weekend. (Neither of you having any idea at all about what was to unfold on race day)
At Barrabool, he told us that his history up to that weekend had been a bit sort-of flat-tracky.
And that in the race,he was picking up an extra gear on the corners and going out speedway-wide
(it was a broad track) while the GP riders kept it tight and point-to-point.
He said that because he was high-speed broadsliding, he was spraying the big crowd with debris.
That, plus the fact he was on a Spanish bike, sent the crowd absolutely ape-shit.
I would have loved to be with him on that Sunday night, as he shook his head in disbelief, and reviewed
that famous day.
And, as we all know, after he effectively won the day, Bultaco changed his one-off ride into a
contract for the GP season.
What a freakin' LEGEND.
-
What a freakin' LEGEND.
True and undisputable. :)
But if he did that well by just adding the tank ::)
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/ccb4e23c8aa216f1e96d31ab209c036b_XL.jpg?t=1296820610)
Imagine how well he would have done with a whole Maico.
-
oh Mick de Mick de, he did go with Red in 77.............. of another kind ;) ;D
Where's young Arnie now ?? (http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/youngdudesJimandArnie.jpg)
-
Glad to have met him and seen him ride at Barrabool Classic Dirt , When i handed this to him to sign, he bellowed out to Peter Schone and crew,Look at this ,I told you I was skinny once, ;) Yep a Legend for sure.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/34gtulx.jpg)
-
I sometimes ponder about Jim when he went to Spain for that GP.
I think it was a one-off. And that he was a relatively unknown nobody. He would've had some support
from the factory (of course) but would largely, I suspect, have been on his own.
I can picture him wandering around town ... hanging about ... trying to make
a friend here or there.
As far as I remember Bimbo was testing in Spain for the US season and cutting some pretty fast laps, the Spanish circuit being very similar to the SoCal circuits. Don Paco asked him when he was leaving, "Fri" came the reply. "No you're not" says FX, I've changed your flight to the following week. The GP is on Sunday and I've put you in as a entry.
The rest as they say is history.
-
This was in MXA 3rd 1974.
(http://i51.tinypic.com/29m7s7c.jpg)
-
We were sitting around chatting with Jim Pomeroy at Barrabool and I seem to remember him telling us that the Spanish GP winning bike had two histories, the official story that it was a factory prepped stocker and the real story that it had been prepared by his Washington Bultaco dealer sponsor. He reckoned it ran rings around the factory bikes and was much lighter. He didn't mention anything about a CMS frame but it wouldn't be out of the picture.
-
Thanks KB, Firko exactly the stuff I'm looking for. Jerry
-
Jerry, I got this stuff out of my Pursang Story book that I got at Barrabool when Jim was there. Sorry I can't find a good close up shot of his bike.
Stan.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/Pomeroypicsandbookforward.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/Pomeroypics1.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/Pomeroypics2.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/Pomeroypics3.jpg)
-
Great stuff Stan much appreciated. Cheers Jerry
-
Searched everywhere for photo's of Jim Pomeroys 1973 250cc Spanish Grand Prix winning bike with zero success. Does anybody know if it's in someones collection or museum somewhere? I think it was modified to the extent it had opaque plastic guards, shoulderless rims, maybe a different rear hub. I also believe it had a taller seat (remember Jim was tall) and maybe a CMS frame according to Geoff Morris at GMC (thanks Geoff)and he was #26 and yes I'm probably going to try to build a replica of the bike. Perhaps a true Pomeroy replica. If anybody can help I would much appreciate it. Cheers Jerry
Jerry, that'll be a great project. For such a history making bike, there's been little attention paid to it in the press. I've never seen a feature on it & only ever seen a handful of pics of it in action. I don't recall any still shots. I suspect that's because it was fairly close to a stocker. The press of the day was infatuated w the trick factory bikes & gave them the air-play, largely passing over the production based bikes.
Probably, he had a few modifed bits from his american sponsor, like perhaps the barrel, pipe & carb. Having said that, I have a Cycle mag article somewhere where they actually measured the barrel of Pomeroy's later Superbowl bike & compared it to a std barrel. His barrel was carefully prep'd w 'clean & match' (they showed pics as I recall) but was w'in prod'n tolerance of stock dimensions. (I'll have to try & dig it out)
There was of course no 'works bultaco' at the time. That came after his initial success & even then was hardly radical - still prod'n based. All the pics I've seen of the 73 GP winning bike show a fairly stock prod'n Mk6, except for the changes you mention above. It definitely had the mk7 style rear hub, telesco shocks (Mk7 style), ridgeless front rim but ridged rear rim, diff guards that look opaque (as you say) & I think y're right that it had extra padding in the seat.
It may also have had a chr-mo frame, but I highly doubt it was a CMS job. (Yes I saw that claim from CMS back in the day too & was always skeptical). Bultaco was already moving in the lightweight direction, having had a fair bit of contact w Joe Bolgers success w his lightweight MK3/4 pursangs. And over the years I've seen a few Mk6 pursangs that came w the Mk7 rear hub, telesco shocks & even a cro-mo frame as original equipment - what you might call pre-prod'n Mk7s in Mk6 colours. My guess is that Pomeroy's bike was either one of those, or the first of those.
This all made it look considerably 'smarter' than a std Mk6. If you look at the pic on p26 of VMX#3 (Pomeroy is of course #26 in the middle, not #23 as captioned) even tho its hardly a close-up, the #23 & 18 Buls in the top left of the pic look somewhat 'dowdy' in comparison to #26.
If you can find pics of Pomeroy's bike at the 2nd Superbowl in 73 & even his big-bore for the 73 USGP, it still looks very similar to that 1st GP winning bike (tho it gained a ridgless rear rim by then). Oct73 MXA featured a shot of his rear hub & its clearly Mk7-style.
I've just found a shot of his 73 superbowl bike & by then it also has a Mk7-style silenced pipe & used Konis. It definitly has extra padding in the seat too. As a little aside, Pomeroy was jumping so far at that event that he was said to be "poking holes in the air". Likewise, at that 1st GP he was jumping so hi they had to shift the overhead banners out of the way!
-
Glad to have met him and seen him ride at Barrabool Classic Dirt , When i handed this to him to sign, he bellowed out to Peter Schone and crew,Look at this ,I told you I was skinny once, ;) Yep a Legend for sure.
(http://i56.tinypic.com/34gtulx.jpg)
how cool was Pomeroy at CD3 !
watching him ride was a highlight of that event for me, to see a bloke his age pulling mono's on that bike and having so much fun because he Could and coming in after each ride with a big smile was awesome, he had a passion and was very approachable by all.
VMX misses you Jimbo. RIP
BUILD THE BIKE JERRY, great idea.
-
Thanks for making the time to add your comments JC. Telesco info particuarly useful. Hoony thanks for looking in too. Stay tuned it might take a while but I think it's gonna be worth it. What carby do you reckon? If it was prepared in the states surely it would have been a Mikuni! Love to know for sure! Thanks fella's Jerry
-
This pics from MXA november 1973, good shot of the rear ends ;)
(http://i51.tinypic.com/296iy6a.jpg)
-
MXA FEB 1974
(http://i53.tinypic.com/x0qrkl.jpg)
-
Thanks again KB. Confirms the rear brake stay. Other shot confirms taller seat and you interest in rear ends! Much appreciated. Cheers Jerry
-
Went for a swim at a fellow Kevlar old boys place this morning and the conversation got around to that bench race we had with Jim Pomeroy in Kamp Kevlar at CD4. A couple of the other lads took Bimbos "two different stories" to mean that the bike had a few trick bits he'd bought with him from the USA to personalise the bike rather than it being a tricked out lightweight rocket. We all doubt the magazine claim that it had a CMS frame or anything blatantly obvious as it's doubtful that Senor Bulto would have approved of such shenanigans. My bet is that it probably had a nicely tricked engine and perhaps a pipe done by the guy who'd been prepping his bikes back in Washington and a probably decent set of aftermarket shocks.
-
All sounds plausible to me Firko. If you look at the few available photos of the race weekend you may note that on race day some "Champion" spark plug decals had attached themselves to the fork legs! Found a place on the net and ordered some. Do you reckon he ran an Amal carby??? Thanks for the response. Cheers Jerry
-
What carby do you reckon? If it was prepared in the states surely it would have been a Mikuni! Love to know for sure! Thanks fella's Jerry
No it wasn't prep'd in the states Jerry. You've set me on a bit of a mission, trolling thro old mags & here's what I can report w some degree of certainty (ie verified by more than 1 reputable source):
Tho Pomeroy was somewhat unknown at the time of that 1st GP in 73, he had already competed in the previous years TransAMA & come 2nd American to Lackey, & represented USA in the des nations also doing fairly well, so he had come to Bultaco's notice & they sent him to Europe for 2mths to train w Marcel Wiertz (belgian Bul importer & regular GP rider) & do some international pre-season races in Belgium. For that he used stock prod'n bikes.
By the time of the 1st GP he had impressed enough to get factory prep'd bikes (along w the likes of Vic Allan as far as I can tell), but was still a privateer surviving on pitiful start-money & all-but 'slumming it', not a works rider w a works bike (he had no contract until the belgian GP which was the 3rd GP I think).
Pomeroy's own description of his 1st GP bike: "Power range was really similar (to prod'n pursang), just had more horsepower. The diff I felt was the handling. It was lighter & it just changed a lot of the handling." He goes on to say it used std front supension, but trick lightweight shocks that "might be standard next year". ie the telescos, tho he called them betors. He also says they were using an aluminium clutch (which gave him grief & slowed him in the 2nd moto) - no doubt the one that also became prod'n. Tires were 300/320 Barum front & 450 Metzler rear.
In another I'view, in answer to the question, "How special were the GP bultacos?" he replies, "They weren't too special compared to the suzukis & Maicos & eveything... I'm used to riding a standard bike & thats what I wanted. About all it had was a chro-mo frame made in the states. Its not very good, its made too light & it cracks everywhere. The bul factory frame is better-handling because it feels like it is stronger & doesn't flex as much, but that day I was patriotic (& used the US -made frame)... The factory wanted us to use an experimantal aliminuim clutch but it was slipping & I had a lot of trouble climbing hills"
So the US-made chro-mo frame sounds like tis true. Tom Rapp had already been using such a frame on his sponsored M68 in the US & Doug Schwerma (then trading as Cycle Services) was already selling such frames for pursangs & banditos & reportedly had been involved w the Bul riders in the TransAMA providing chro-mo frames (& Jimmy Odom in short track). Seems to me it would most likely have been 1 of his frames, not a CMS frame.
Now here's a bit of dubious dribble from my 'favourite' journo Frank Melling (who always sounded to me like a geriatric): "Pomeroys bike was 15lbs under the FIM min wt of 196lbs at the Spanish GP, thanks mainly to his lightweight US-made chro-mo frame". Yeh, right! To get a MK6 pursang that light would have taken mega $$s & a lot more than a lighter frame & I'm sure a factory that size would have spent a squillion $$ getting it that light for an untested/unproven rider at GP level. In yr dreams Frank!
Also found the article comparing Pomeroys barrel to an M103 barrell. It was from the bike he used at Daytona & Houston in 74. Inlet is somewhat larger, but the rest are very similar to std pursang.
Bike #57 above is probably one of his bkes used in US (where he regularly used #57), probably from the TransAMA. He's still using ridged akronts there, but note the Mk7 style chain guide - perhaps another pre-prod'n item.
-
Thank you too JC! Great stuff, where did you get it? What do you reckon about the carby? Thanks again Jerry
-
Good research JC....It seems Bimbo wasn't telling us a fib....we just underestimated just how trick the bike might be and the circumstances surrounding it. The mystery now is to unravel just who made the frame. Doug Schwerma was operating at Champion Frames by 1973 so it's a possibility that he might have made it but if that's the case, why would CMS make the claim in their press release unless it was true?? You can bet that Schwerma would have had something to say if CMS were making false claims. I'll do some digging tomorrow and see what I can find........I love a good mystery ;D.
-
Here's some more good reading.
http://www.wsmchof.com/jim-pomeroy-interview-dirt-bike-mag-nov-1973-new.html
-
I did hear that some of the early CMS frames cracked a lot.
The 7th generation frame that I copied had been pretty much sorted. The original had only a small crack in the headtube gussets, the rest of it stood the test of time pretty good.
According to our weigh in thread a Mk 8 frame weighs in at 12 kg and the CMS comes in at just on 10kg so that’s a 2kg (about 4Lb) saving. It would take a hell of a lot to scrub off another 5.5Kg (11Lbs)
This is the best I can enhance the CMS Bultaco frame picture, besides the rear end being different to what Jim used is their any distinguishing features that may stand out from the standard Bultaco frame?
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/CMSbultacoframe-1.jpg)
-
Thanks Stanley great reading. Confirms the tyre brand (have to chase a Barum down somewhere!) By the way do you have a son in Tasmania? Cheers Jerry
-
Geoff...Do you produce a CMS replica Bultaco as well as the CZ unit? Are they essentially the same frame?
-
Thanks Stanley great reading. Confirms the tyre brand (have to chase a Barum down somewhere!) By the way do you have a son in Tasmania? Cheers Jerry
Yes I do, in Hobart, how did you know?
Stan.
-
Geoff...Do you produce a CMS replica Bultaco as well as the CZ unit? Are they essentially the same frame?
Or a GMC replica TM400 Geoff, then we would be talking power and handling. ::)
-
So many projects, so little time.
Nothing planned at the moment, Bulty or TM
The CMS bulty engine cradle looks the same as the CZ version, the sub frame looks a bit different and obvisuosly the engine mounts will be different.
I have seen a CMS-XL version over here as well.
I was in contact with a guy many years ago that had a CMS Bulty frame in the states, but I can’t find the photo’s he sent me now.
He would probably be worth a chat with as I'm sure he spent some time with Jimbo at Diamond Dons or somewhere.
From another contact from many years back….
Besides the Cz one there is also aBultaco one which I think were the first frames they made.
The CMS guys name was Charley Cole. His wife was Mary, and the helper was some guy named Shosgoffenhouser or something like that. (no joke) and that's the CMS.
The Cz shop I worked at was only in business from 1969 to 75 so I don't know about all the different editions
-
Stan totally by chance I was hunting some info on another forum and I came across a young bloke in Hobart who was talking about his "old man's" Bultaco on the cover of VMX. Hope he's not in strife! Cheers Jerry
-
Geoff the only main difference's i can see and this is talking MK5 (which look identical to MK6) is the top shock mount on the bully steps up 30 odd mil putting the bolt hole in line with the flat seatbase tube, and the rest of the tubing looks thinner (cro-mo?) mk5's weigh in at 12kg also, and 3kg for the swingarm , Good luck with the build jerry i'am also going along the line's of jim's bike ,have a pic or two of it (nothing close) if i can find them and corner the young bloke to put them up i will . p.s i wasnt sure of the dc opaque's ,not seeing any and went with the white, let us know how they look .cheers
-
Mark, Doug Schwerma was operating as "Cycle Services" prior to "Champion". The article I have is from June 71 Motorcycle World. His cro-mo Bul frames are visually identical to std pursang frames of the era (as was Pomeroy's 73GP bike) but were said to have steeper rake (typical of Schwerma frames).
The 1st I ever heard of CMS products was a Dirt Bike ad in Nov 74 for CZ frames - long after that 73 GP. Pomeroy's later factory Bul (which by then featured forward mounted shocks) featured in Dec 74 DB had a frame visually diff to the CMS pursang frame - tho one has to say, there are similarities.
Geoff, the diff between the CMS frame & the 73GP bike, apart from the FMS rear end, is in the construction of the rear subframe. The seat rails on the CMS sub-frame are flat & continue on to the rear loop (where there is an upward kink behind the top shock mounts), w the rear upright tubes butting up against them.
Pursang frames of the era (c72-75) are distinctive in that the seat rails are short & butt up to the rear uprights which continue up above them then bend horizontal to form the top shock mounts & have a smaller tube rear loop inserted into them, which then kinks up again for the mudguard. The rear of the pursang seat is cut-away for the raised shock mounts (if that all makes sense - it should if you look at a pursang frame).
Pomeroys 73GP frame was just like the std pursang frames. Other pics of Poweroy's frames from the era (now at Hugh's Bultaco) also show them visually the same as mk5-8 prod'n pursang frames.
However, does anyone know the beginnings of CMS Products? (Edit, I see Geoff' posted above while I was typing)
I'm beginning to wonder if there's a link between CMS & Schwerma/Cycle Services/Champion. I have a pic of what is said to be a late 74 Champion-framed Pursang & it appears all-but identical to the CMS frame in the ad Geoff posted above. Not only that, but the 76 125 prod'n pursang frame is also all-but identical to both, except for diff gussets on the swingarm.
Was Charlie Cole formerly an employee of Schwerma, or vice versa? Or were they mates? Or did one produce the other's frames at some stage?
-
The 1st I ever heard of CMS products was a Dirt Bike ad in Nov 74 for CZ frames - long after that 73 GP
John I was basing my theory on CMS's own claim that Pomeroy was using a CMS frame when he won the Spanish GP (GMC's post, page 1 of this thread). I can't imagine them claiming Bimbos use of their frame if it wasn't true. The press release was published only a year after the race, when the win was still fresh in everyones mind. I doubt very much that Doug Schwerma and Charlie Cole had anything to do with each others businesses. I do wonder though if Charlie was related to Jeff Cole the founder of C&J? That'd be a more logical connection as C&J were known to have produced a number of covert works frames for a number of manufacturers.
-
No offense Mark, I wasn't taking a shot at you, just following up yr post.
To my knowledge, Pomeroy never claimed he used a CMS frame. The way I read it is that CMS claimed that, which was "news" to Dirt Rider mag. Pomeroy only said that he used a US-made cro-mo frame.
The possibility of a connection between Schwerma & Charley Cole stems from the uncanny similarity between the late 74 CMS & Champion pursang FMS frames. As far as I can tell from the pics I have they're identical.
-
The spanish new how to build a work of Art. Beautiful looking machine, Jim was a true champion and love vintage racing, its sad that he is not around, but his spirit lives on.
-
The 1st I ever heard of CMS products was a Dirt Bike ad in Nov 74 for CZ frames - long after that 73 GP. Pomeroy's later factory Bul (which by then featured forward mounted shocks) featured in Dec 74 DB had a frame visually diff to the CMS pursang frame - tho one has to say, there are similarities.
I remember going through a lot of adds many years back looking for info on CMS.
We found a few adds for CMS, I’m sure some were from 73?? but that Dec 74 add was the first with a picture.
It could be that CMS claimed that Jim used their frame in the add as nobody realized because it was so close to stock.
Geoff, the diff between the CMS frame & the 73GP bike, apart from the FMS rear end, is in the construction of the rear subframe. The seat rails on the CMS sub-frame are flat & continue on to the rear loop (where there is an upward kink behind the top shock mounts), w the rear upright tubes butting up against them.
So can anyone spot those differences in any close ups of Jims GP bike?
-
Is that you Dave?
-
Is that you Dave?
Dave's not here Man
-
Is that you Dave?
Dave's not here Man
Geoff I think he meant the newly formed Jawa Race Team ;D
Stan.
-
AKA Swedish Connection etc etc
-
Its Dave man! Will you open up, I got the stuff with me
Yeah Dave, come on man open up I think the cops saw me
(Sorry, I'm in a world of my own)
-
Who!! Dave, Daves not here man...
-
Found a bit better scan
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/CMSbultacoframe-3.jpg)
-
No offense Mark, I wasn't taking a shot at you, just following up yr post
I didn't take it that way John, not in the least. I'm investigating the Charley/Jeff Cole connection as I still think that makes more sense....More news when my mate in the USA gets back to me (hopefully)
-
Gee, that frame looks like the one l have in my shed, gee its so light, it would about 8 to 10 kg ;D
-
The thot plickens!
-
Geoff, the diff between the CMS frame & the 73GP bike, apart from the FMS rear end, is in the construction of the rear subframe. The seat rails on the CMS sub-frame are flat & continue on to the rear loop (where there is an upward kink behind the top shock mounts), w the rear upright tubes butting up against them.
So can anyone spot those differences in any close ups of Jims GP bike?
Not sure what you mean Geoff, but the diffs I'm describing can be easily seen even from a reasonable distance.
Another bit of info - the Schwerma pursang frames were quoted as 23.5lbs incl s'arm.
Jerry, wrt carbs, as far as I can see (in pics) the sponsored bul riders of the era (73) at national level in USA seem to be still using Amal carbs, tho Pomeroy could have used a bing. In the article on his late 74 big-bore (in Dec DB) it uses a Bing & Pomeroy is quoted as saying he prefers the bing to the std Amal
-
Some old Pomeroy pic's
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/JimPomeroy.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/JimPomeroy2.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/JimPomeroy3.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/JimPomeroy4.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/Pomeroy6.jpg)
-
The pomeroy race bike, he is using a new generation Amal carbie not a bing.
-
No its definitely a Bing on the late74 TransAMA bigbore.
Also Jerry, I found a pic of his 74 250 GP bike & he's using the old style Amal!
-
Dave do you know that for sure? and please dont take this wrong way but how do you know? Important info for me as I want to be as accurate as possible in creating this replica. Thanks Jerry
-
JC that seems to confirm Daves story. Any chance you can put the photo up? Thanks Jerry
-
Jerry, you can tell by the shape of the carbie in the picture ( pomeroy bike ), its Amal, Bultaco never used bings that much, a bing in that era has a long slide neck. and amal is smaller squotter look. and a 76 bultaco frontera 360 l rode and that used an Amal.
-
Thanks Dave which picture?
-
Not sure what you mean Geoff, but the diffs I'm describing can be easily seen even from a reasonable distance.
I’m not that much of a Bultaco trainspotter John and I was thinking that as some of this debate is about what frame Jim used I thought that someone more knowledgeable may be able to spot the subtle differences as to which frame he used.
The hard part to this though is that there are so many pictures of Jim from different events, and we need to look at the 73 GP pictures only.
Also the CMS frame I have put up probably isn’t a good one to compare with as if he did use a CMS frame it would have been an earlier version.
-
I just had a look through my Pursang brochures and the first Bing carb was on the Mk9.
The Mk 9 Frontera had Amal carbs but I believe the later ones came with Bings.
The Mk 10 Frontera came with Bings.
Geoff the difference I can see in the frame(and it is hard to see) is the foot peg mounts.They seem different to the Bultaco mounts,maybe even bolt on mounts?
-
production bully`s may have used bings, but that bully of Jim pomeroy`s bike has an Amal.
-
I just had a look through my Pursang brochures and the first Bing carb was on the Mk9.
Moto, the Mk8 125 that I've got has a Bing on it. Were they not standard on this model?
Regards Stan.
-
Geoff the difference I can see in the frame(and it is hard to see) is the foot peg mounts.They seem different to the Bultaco mounts,maybe even bolt on mounts?
The foot peg mounts would have been bolt on as this part of the frame looks the same as the CZ version.
But it may also be the earlier version of the CMS frame had different mounts to the frame pictures I have.
I know CMS had earlier versions fo their frames but I haven't seen any pictures of them
Apparently when Jim saw this bike he declared it was his old bike but after looking at photo’s of Jims race days the owner now doubts that.
Although maybe Jim raced this version at later events???
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/CMSbultacoframe-4.jpg)
-
Stan,
You get me every time with that 125 :) :-[(no brochure) Yes the 125 Mk 8 also had a Bing on it. My book shows the Mk7 125 having an Amal.
-
The bike above looks to have a mikuni fitted just by the shape of the float bowl or am I mistaken.
-
Stan,
You get me every time with that 125 :) :-[(no brochure) Yes the 125 Mk 8 also had a Bing on it. My book shows the Mk7 125 having an Amal.
Thanks Moto,
I also had a new MK7 125 and it did have an round Amal std, although Bert put a bigger one on methonal on mine from new.
I still had the new std one up till a couple of years ago but I haven't seen it for a while.
Stan.
-
my mk8 125 had a bing.
-
my mk8 125 had a bing.
Hey David, what sort of Jawa have you got?
Regards Stan.
-
The bike above looks to have a mikuni fitted just by the shape of the float bowl or am I mistaken.
It may well be but its a modern picture.
-
I suppose this CMS frame Bulty is a bit of a thread hijack but what the heck, how much reason do we need to post a photo
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/CMSbultacoframe-5.jpg)
Continuing with a thread hijack, heres some from 74
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/JimsGPbike741.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/Jims74GPbike.jpg)
-
Looks like a Woody Grave's built bike ?
-
The last 3 pics in GMC's post #74 (bike #12) are from Dec 74 DB mag which is Pomerpoy's TransAMA 360 of late 74. It clearly shows the Bing I was referring to & the caption notes his preference (by then) for Bing over Amal which I mentioned above.
Dave's noting the square bodied Amal, as far as I can tell, is referring to Auscobuls post #7 (p1) which was his 76 bike & clearly shows a square-bodied Mk2 Amal, but that's completely irrelevant to the 73GP bike. I don't think the sq bodied Amals even existed in April 73.
I'll try & post a pic of his 74 250GP bike (later) which clearly shows he was using the round Amal. Thats no guarantee he used the round Amal on his 73GP bike, but it does seem unlikely he would have used a Mikuni.
Geoff, can you confirm that #42U bike above is a CMS frame? It looks a lot like one, tho its diff around the footpeg/s'arm-pivot area - & it looks uncannily like the championed frame bike I've seen.
-
I know the owner of the 42u bike and it is a CMS frame.
(http://gdnomad.smugmug.com/Vintage-Motocross/1974-Bultaco-360-rebuild/CMS-frame-ad/82061881_Ah69q-O.jpg)
(http://gdnomad.smugmug.com/Vintage-Motocross/1974-Bultaco-360-rebuild/CMSframe-1/82073468_hqoWe-L.jpg)
-
A nice clear photo shot 8)
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Bike-Card-1973-Bultaco-250-Pursang-Pomeroy-Motocross-MX-/380176650607?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58844b516f
-
I know the owner of the 42u bike
This be him
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/GaryDavisBulty.jpg)
The trouble with a lot of the early frame builders is that they didn’t “brand” them so it can sometimes be hard to work out what builder built a frame.
Some will name a frame to a certain builder because they are not aware of how many frame builders there were so some frames can be labeled wrongly because they are assumed to belong to a well known builder.
John, are you sure the frame you looked at is a Champion?
Most Champion frames were of the dirt track variety, I’m not sure they built that many MX frames.
If you look at manufacturing techniques and gussets you can start to see the differences.
The CMS add…
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/CMSbultacoframe-2b.jpg)
One of my CMS replicas which is a direct copy of Drakies frame….
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/CMS-frame-nickel-2.jpg)
The 42U frame….
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/CMSbultacoframe-4.jpg)
-
Thanks Oldmxracer. Do you know anything of the history of CMS Products?
The hard part to this though is that there are so many pictures of Jim from different events, and we need to look at the 73 GP pictures only.
Also the CMS frame I have put up probably isn’t a good one to compare with as if he did use a CMS frame it would have been an earlier version.
Very true on both counts Geoff. The 73GP bike frame is visually identical to a pursang frame of the era, but that doesn't mean CMS couldn't have made it, if they were in business in early 73.
The trouble with a lot of the early frame builders is that they didn’t “brand” them so it can sometimes be hard to work out what builder built a frame.
Some will name a frame to a certain builder because they are not aware of how many frame builders there were so some frames can be labeled wrongly because they are assumed to belong to a well known builder.
John, are you sure the frame you looked at is a Champion?
Yes, I've wondered if the pic I'm referring to is rightly captioned. It was listed for sale as "CHAMPION BULTACO: MX frame made in 74".
The same bike pictured elswhere (in LaVoz de SMOG) looks so much like the CMS framed bike you posted that you'd have to conclude either that its wrongly captioned or that CMS & Champion used the same builder or had some kind of link.
If I could get my scanner up & running after Cyclone Yasi, I'd have a go at posting a few pics - hopefully in the next day or so.
But I'm inclining to think that CMS did build the earlier Pomery frames. The give-away is in the boxed-in swingarm pivot area. If you look carefully in all those pics you posted of #42U you can see it. Not all Pomeroys frames had that (the 74 TranAMA 360 in Dec DB didn't), but its the same as in a pic I have from Hugh's Bultaco, said to be one of Pomeroys (pre-long-travel) frames, which is otherwise visually similar to std pursang frames of the era.
I can just make it out in the pic of the so-called "Champion Bultaco" too.
-
Could this be the correct rear fender? Anything old school plastic comes up I buy it, had this one for a few years now
(http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/sudmanvmx/fire001.jpg)
(http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/sudmanvmx/fire002.jpg)
-
John, from what your saying I would just about lay money that the frame your looking at is a CMS and not a Champion.
It’s a common theme, someones not sure what they’ve got and “old mate” declares its Brand X because he heard about them once, and not many have heard of CMS (which must have pissed them off if Jim did win a GP with their frame and 38 years later people still aren’t sure)
You just have to look at e-bay to see how many things are branded with the wrong model or year, PE’s advertised as RM’s, 77’s advertised as 74 etc.
I once had an argument with a guy that tried to tell me that Honda made Hodaka’s because he once saw them in the classifieds in the Honda section. He had never heard of Hodaka before so he concluded that they were made by Honda and I’m not sure I was able to convince him otherwise
Fabricators tend to have individual styles, it comes from their experiences and tooling that is handy.
My pipes for instance, my downpipes have had the same muffler style for over a decade now, and except for a few specials the mounting brackets have been the same laser cut shape for over a decade as well. Welding will also be similar and you may notice that mine look different to other cone pipes.
Those double plate sections for the swingarm pivot I reckon are typical of CMS.
Are their any other frames that you know to be a Champion that have similar gussets?
-
Champion frames are pretty distinctive and unless Shwerma produced a different, one off design for the Bultaco, I'm willing to bet my goolies on the Spanish GP bike being a CMS. Even though Champion are more noted for their flat track frames, their motocross design is very similar bar slight differences in the swingarm, footpeg mounts and steering head angle. Greg Bastek was recently trying to flog a Champion MX360 motocrosser on the Swapmeet and it was very different to the CMS in overall concept and layout(while acknowledging the twin/single downtube difference). see photo below.
I again come back to believing the 'Tools and Chattel' item shown above. It'd take a lot of gall to make a claim like that in an internationally distributed magazine unless it were true. One would assume that CMS would be pulled up pretty quickly by those involved in the Pomeroy effort if the claims were incorrect.
Whatever the truth is, this is a pretty good example of the knowledge on this forum being put to good use, uncovering an important yet almost forgotten piece of motocross history.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/champion%20MX360%20Bastek.jpg)
-
Thanks Oldmxracer. Do you know anything of the history of CMS Products?
Yep that's him. He runs around the country hauling a 2 stroke powered Margarita machine with some guy called Diamond Don. ;D
Sorry, I don't know much about CMS.
-
Could this be the correct rear fender?
Sudman, that could well be very close to the real deal.
Those double plate sections for the swingarm pivot I reckon are typical of CMS.
Are their any other frames that you know to be a Champion that have similar gussets?
Geoff, as you would know, the double plate sections are typical of CZ frames of the era. Its just one small step from there to box them in. I don't know of any chapion frames that used it tho.
Champion frames are pretty distinctive and unless Shwerma produced a different, one off design for the Bultaco, I'm willing to bet my goolies on the Spanish GP bike being a CMS. Even though Champion are more noted for their flat track frames, their motocross design is very similar bar slight differences in the swingarm, footpeg mounts and steering head angle. Greg Bastek was recently trying to flog a Champion MX360 motocrosser on the Swapmeet and it was very different to the CMS in overall concept and layout(while acknowledging the twin/single downtube difference).
Yes Mark, agreed - champion frames are generally quite distinctive. I've long believed the yamaha-engined frames are very Maico-like. But the 71 Schwerma Bul frames are distinctively Bul-like. It takes a fairly keen eye to spot the diffs from Pursang/Bandito frames of the era.
I personally can't put much weight on a claim that CMS built Pomeroy's 73 frame. I've seen too much folly claimed over the years in US mags, esp where it concerns US products/expertise etc. I went thro a heap of 73-74 mags yesterday & I found several similar snippets/ads on CMS Products, but only that 1 mentioned any claim that they built Pomeroy's frame. And even the wording of that is not clear who actually made the claim.
My take is that if it were true, CMS would have been splashing it everywhere, in every frame ad. Also, since the magazine pooh-paah-ed the claim, you'd think if it were true CMS would have followed it up & got an apology. What I'm chasing is conclusive evidence, or at least verified from more than 1 reputable source.
With some more evidence I found last night, I'm now inclining to think we will never know who made the 73GP bike frame. I'm not even yet fully convinced that it was US made, or that CMS existed in early 73, tho I do think it was most likely a cro-mo frame.
Hopefully I'll be able to post a few pics later today to show what I'm talking about.
(Just as an aside, I found CMS apparently made 2 CZ frames, one for pre-73 Zeds, & one for post 74 Zeds.)
-
Ron Pomeroy is still around… he would probably know more than most?
-
It was a comment in an add from Dirt Rider ( I think 74?)
It seemed like news to them at the time.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/GMC%20parts/CMSframe-1.jpg)
Pomeroy used a stock Pursang with his rear shocks, that CMS ad is bullshit.
-
Pomeroy used a stock Pursang with his rear shocks, that CMS ad is bullshit.
Hi Peter, can you shed some light on what you know or have heard about Jim's 73 GP Winning bike.
Regards Stan.
-
I have a fairly close pic of the #26 spanish GP bike and it distinctly has the shockmount/bottom of rear loop with the dogleg 'aka" the production bike?one thing we do know is that bimbo in that period changed his bikes as often as his grundy's ! i will try to post it later when the young bloke gets home :)
-
Copy's a bit how you goin' but you can still see the swoop in loop behind shock mount (it's more a raised shockmount compared to cms) phot plicken's :D ps great shot bear!
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa445/huskibul82/pomeroy.jpg)
-
Great shot Huski. Confirms seat, guards,rear hub, rims, "Champion" sticker placement, seat height and expansion chamber. Thanks mate Jerry
-
I reckon it’s an each way bet.
Interestingly there are some claims that Jim used an American built Cro-Mo frame so it would make sense that it was a CMS as the add claimed, however I find it odd that they would have shipped a frame to Spain for a testing session with Bultaco.
I heard from a guy many years back that worked around the corner from CMS, he reckons they were building frames in 72.
He also told me that CMS was derived from Charley Cole, his wife was Mary, and the helper Shosgoffenhouser
A new source that worked at CMS now says it was California Motocross Specialties.
This guy also says…
Bultaco probably less than 100 frames produced.
CZ maybe 200.
I was sales rep for them in 73-74. Mostly sold frame and swingarm for CZ.
Ultra high quality stuff. Beautiful. As good as anything made today. Very light. Perfect welding.
Would be extremely expensive to duplicate today. Haven't heard anything about them for decades.
I would agree on the well made comments after looking hard at Drakies frame
Did Bultaco always have snail cam adjusters on their swingarms?
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa445/huskibul82/pomeroy.jpg)
-
Always Have A Great Time,
Always Ride Hard & Race To Win,
Always Get Together With Friends,
And Always Get Ready For The Next Race..
JP.
(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/images/jimPomeroyNfamily_600.jpg) (http://www.southwestmontesa.com/images/jimPomeroyHeadstone_600.jpg)
-
Certainly had the snail cams back to MK2 Pursang. There are however at least 2 variations. Back to work now Geoff!!!! Cheers Jerry
-
Love that shot Huskibul. I've only ever seen a very small version of it.
Yes, Geoff, snail cams on my 71 Sherpa S & on Sammy's 64 SherpaT
Went thro all my La Voz de SMOG (spanish m'cycle owners group) back issues & in 50 issues could only find 2 very small shots of JP's bikes, one of which is that one Huskibul posted.
-
Geoff....do you have a front view of the CMS frame? I'm interested to see how much the front downtube goes past the point where the bottom cradle tubes are joined. I reckon that might be different on the CMS compared to the stocker, settling this for good.
-
It was a comment in an add from Dirt Rider ( I think 74?)
It seemed like news to them at the time.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/GMC%20parts/CMSframe-1.jpg)
Pomeroy used a stock Pursang with his rear shocks, that CMS ad is bullshit.
The ad says he used A CMS frame, not the one pictured.
-
Yep that's him. He runs around the country hauling a 2 stroke powered Margarita machine with some guy called Diamond Don. ;D
Sounds like Husky Pete and the boys will be right at home over there.
Certainly had the snail cams back to MK2 Pursang. There are however at least 2 variations. Back to work now Geoff!!!! Cheers Jerry
What are the 2 variations? The pictured Bulty has holes on the snail cams, the CMS snail cams were solid alloy.
-
Geoff....do you have a front view of the CMS frame? I'm interested to see how much the front downtube goes past the point where the bottom cradle tubes are joined. I reckon that might be different on the CMS compared to the stocker, settling this for good.
This is about the best I can do from the ad.
It appears the lower engine mount brackets are mounted onto the main down tube undernearth where the side cradle tubes join.
I'm not familiar how the Bultaco frames look
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/CMSbultacoframe-6.jpg)
-
Thats pretty much how std pursang frames are.
Jerry, you really set me on a mission. I've found a whole lot more info, which I'll try to present in chronological order. Bear w me, this could take a while w numerous posts, if I can post the pics up. (Edit: I can't seem to show the pics here so I'll have to use hyperlink)
Its not "the devil is in the detail", its the clues:
Schwerma Bandito frame below, circa71. Click on the links for larger pics
You'd be hard pressed to pick that from a std Bul frame, tho there is a diff mount for the sidecover
(http://api.ning.com/files/Lk4Thor2hgXKWiTLXNpn2ycdq3DAyH7RAI8JyX8xEccOomtRu4h1GHbBiWidPrIGitP*srfKbycozSWPgFnB*3dkC0AjBoaV/SchwermaframedBandito71.jpg?width=737&height=522)
Schwerma M48/68 Pursang frame c71 (it says Bandito but its clearly the single downtube pursang frame) visually similar to pursang frame of the era. But Bul tragics will note the diff engine cradle, shorter front down tube, diff bottom front engine mounts (which Bul themselves used on later Astros), & diff where the cradle attaches to the downtube (ie lower than on a std pursang frame). A careful look will note the seat mounts are diff to the std pursang mounts which I'll pick up on again later
(http://api.ning.com/files/ywKZHON0zShsDZu5UMGd8joIrmAKWUJZl4s8-pcY6ZUcEEYDjxeBErkzoeYlTTZZhROF93D9rVbUeQcH0i8fBKtorqYb0fXm/Schwerma71Bulframe2.jpg?width=648&height=600)
Schwerma claimed to have invlovement w the Bul riders in previous years TransAMA. Tom Rapp was one such rider, who was said to have used a custom cro-mo frame on his M68 pursang. Here is Tom Rapp. Note the diff engine cradle to std pursang, shorter downtube, diff attachment point of cradle to downtube, & on the original you can just make out diff sidecover to M68 w diff attachment point to frame -all consistent w the Schwerma frames. That is a Schwerma frame. (It is of course clearer in the original)
(http://api.ning.com/files/EumwYGppLny537yuNrvBN7ecl07BeMLN*Ihi38gijwOW1tV*-HX-QutTruy--RgOoJtE6mgoUq1NVO-lW9JSsGG*ZV7ztEr0/TomRappcromoM68.jpg?width=727&height=600)
There is also an indisputable connection between Schwerma to Bul via Jim Odom's short track bike in 71 (which I can post a pic of later too)
-
Some pics of JP in 73
In practice for Spanish GP
(http://api.ning.com/files/wog2Om8Vb5zPAls-vfkfzc2V8SX4IfIki5EnGoCAW-Il6Aq0og3sgnqD6XkfLrJg0cQWdeuI10TczFFfgl7TDMcin0oYSMLq/pomeroyinflight73spanishGPpractice.jpg?width=737&height=536)
In the race
(http://api.ning.com/files/wog2Om8Vb5ypRXW4ge*5rJeTiJzfMeI6ky60gVApS4J9XuwvBrc8rTjvD-ora8c0rHilJrziLx*6Jdo73Pts*MxqZL4g*AVY/pomeroyspanishGP73.jpg?width=524&height=600)
And later in 73 GP season at Finland. Note, 3rd-last GP of the season & he's still using short travel rear suspension!
(http://api.ning.com/files/6g5DF1TArzO7uZM8klO4MNPlCenAreaAQVgt45EkTbzn*Y3-nUnvQ5SO*zQ9BoFDFYjbz-AM*0*XNKs6aq7NDaMrG8eikfIS/pomeroyfinlandgp73CIJul74.jpg?width=329&height=600)
-
Can someone tell me if those hperlinks are working - ie that you can click on the link & see the pic.
They don't seem to be on my computer, tho they were.
And I've got quite a lot more to post
-
Yep working fine
-
Thanks sudman
Here's "a genuine factory racing frame used by Bultaco sponsored riders while racing in US"
It is typical pursang except for the boxed in pivot area, & as you'll see in the following pic, has a diff shaped rear loop - more squared & longer
(http://api.ning.com/files/wog2Om8Vb5yduoCP6UfB2dn6qA9z-847GH9DnpciPifxamsI8bGJA5cy-jAZD4Nm*kex2GfFs5UIsdjWFn8ec1GXZF4yiLrg/BulworksframeforUSridersmaybepomeroys.jpg?width=436&height=600)
(http://api.ning.com/files/ywKZHON0zSgHYV6HOVh8NsfGGKKZOO9q*oeMtHG8G19EXNgSI7Wo5u3RlyvK39FInZS5p3WretlhNZsG7Da87pIc-lh0UBA-/BulworksframeforUSriders2maybepomeroy.jpg?width=436&height=600)
Note the frame # stamped on it. That is a Bul/factory serial # - ie B100248
Caption reads: "All "factory racing" serial numbers on frames & engines usually started w 100"
And further: "Theres a bit of mystery with some of these factory racing frames as to their manufacture. Some might be custom fabrications in cro-mo, made somewhere in California during the 70s. (Bultaco sponsored pro-rider Tom Rapp had a custom cro-mo frame made in Ca for his Mod 68)"
Note also the seat mounts. They are a distinctive fabrication - classic made-in-the-factory-in-Spain workmanship. The sort of distinctive workmanship typical of a builder/fabricator that Geoff mentions above (post #82 "fabricators tend to have individual styles") is aparrent & you'll see it on just about every prod'n pursang of the era. They are decidedly diff to the ones on the CMS & Schwerma frames earlier in the thread if you check it out.
OK, so the boxed in pivot area is common to the CMS frame on bike #42U above, but which came 1st? Who copied who? CMS followed CZ practice in double plating the pivot area on the CZ frames so we have a precedent of them following the factory.
But is there any evidence this frame (B100248) appeared before the CMS pursang frames advertised in late 74? Yes. All JP's longtravel bikes I've seen had the top shock mount moved forward, so its likely to be from the 73 GP season. By the TransAMA of late 73 everybody had LTR susp'n.
Furthermore, the 400 prototype that J Mingels rode in 73 500GP season is stamped 100260 & a similar engine at Hughs Bultaco (for which there's evidence it was probably one used by Pomeroy) is 100262. That would seem to indicate this frame (100248) was used early in the 73 GP season, long before CMS used the boxed-in-pivot area on their late 74 frames.
-
Moving onto to JPs bike mid-season 73. These are from Superbowl 2 73:
(http://api.ning.com/files/ICaPEKqj7aBYNlHC8qSnaEWoC*5TquVHNPKUcSG2L8gL-uSSXtAhOgp6vZYbW4qqfWNe-RpbZbcjgswG5KzEPGn1kxlP5q0T/pomeroyatsuperbowl273.jpg?width=449&height=600)
(http://api.ning.com/files/wog2Om8Vb5z-STv4Rrx1zbSiDjaHN20Yp5f-hxAw3magrZzxLnBImSnNAzbL8w1*9g5DpEioMtkeQZ-JVe***aoH1DBUa983/Pomsuperbowl273.jpg?width=341&height=600)
(http://api.ning.com/files/JZiV684pVI3-m6NC5hIv*IxDKw9f0fF0QW5ajDD3flRWITw-KLGZ6db9fwBWUmqRgWH7KA2Zx*AZtE2Zhvf*MnZl0bZi98A4/PominflightSuperbowl273.jpg?width=444&height=600)
And the 73 USGP:
(http://api.ning.com/files/UEasYtBYxGNzAZvoZp2rvSvWh4vtrfk3l311JA*A4RiDgiYeXezJrHLSM3eyQ1xL6YJ6vNj6XsmoQvQfV79rXfmIqhJgVOsI/PomeroyUSGP73.jpg?width=462&height=600)
(http://api.ning.com/files/LmtYawC8NobfVYnx5tVvfnApZuwBFWh4cHGT*lc6xPnsfV4wUEMqRVZm3U45xbalb9b*vzJZsGmQSmNs-rZ2-IIhaAxJtq1w/pomeroyrearhubUSGP73.jpg?width=417&height=600)
And from Nov 73 MXA:
(http://api.ning.com/files/ZQcb5CzxvvvbkONL5vIbdazM2hq*hxgJ*8BnQkH1F0TfFLxZQ--PLAC7wOdiA3In1GrTLo0T7chPcmWH1BoI878D1w7XJdNr/PomeroyMXANov73.jpg?width=471&height=600)
Note carefully the rear frame loop & seat (in all those pics) - both somewhat diff to std pursang, being somewhat squared off at the rear, consistent w B100248 frame loop above, & the seat extends right back to the rear frame loop. At the very least, the seat is diff to 73 Spanish GP bike - the frame may or may not be the same.
It seems to me that B100248 (or one from the same batch) could well have been the one JP used at Superbowl 2 & USGP in mid-season 73 & perhaps even from the start of the season. JP rode in Superbowl 1 in 72, won the jump for the furtherest distance (158ft IIRC) but didn't feature in the results, so probably DNF'd as he was riding in the fast lane by then. So could it be that for Superbowl 2 he wanted a reinforced frame? And maybe for the whole 73 GP season?
-
So who built the frame for JP's Spanish Gp bike? We've established a definite connection between Schwerma & Bul in MX (not just short track) circa 71. We have what appears to be a factory built cro-mo frame from early 73 w boxed-in pivot area long before CMS's evidence for it. We DON'T see CMS splashing the claim they made JPs frame thro all their ads when it would have foolish business sense NOT to milk it for all its worth (like Bultaco did) if it were true. But we do have JP claiming his frame was US made.
The US journo (& amateur MXer), John Huetter who travelled the whole 73 season w JP reported:
"Pomeroy's pursang was painfully stock. The only change had been a cro-mo frame w stock geometry & some one-off betor shocks that had been built for this race". (He should have noticed that the rear hub was very trick for the time too.) He doesn't mention the frame being US made. Nor does Vic Allen when he said (VMX #7 p67, 2000) : "I ended up doing the 250s (ie GP circuit in 73) on a standard production pursang w the barrel tuned by Tony Dowe, now director of racing at Arrows F1 team. When JP broke one of the lightweight cro-mo frames I was given it & had it welde up". (He is in the pic of Spanish GP start in VMX3 p26)
Since Huetter also reports that JP got some special factory parts (cyl & crank) later in the season, obviously the factory was producing special parts. And much of it seeking lighter weight. eg the lightweight rear hub (pre-prod'n Mk7) & special lightweight shocks (JP said they were each over 1lb lighter per shock). There seems no attempt to portray JP's bike as a std pursang.
But lets backtrack to circa 1970 & the Joe Bolger connection. This is his 205lb M48 from 1970. He got it down from 232lb by ditching the bulky f'glass, using much smaller l'wt hubs & cr0-mo s'arm.
(http://api.ning.com/files/lmwrCPRCoTVX*W98e0oEaDSqiWplVnS7C*3slM*x86FOX0jFNbsXH*ZQNb5BG0gRE5gEsyOu78mjuiEJhoyOG07bxC9vtBdF/BolgerslightweightM48.jpg?width=737&height=363)
Here is Snr Bulto visiting Bolger in his shop:
(http://api.ning.com/files/LmtYawC8NoaqYgO7RQxDYbA1UmHxI3sdYBkxeziDpJMnT5xEuqF9N25pW384ZuK7*4alrfRWuxYUcOSOMqvpTK6zKc9xuPP*/BolgerwSenorBultocirca70.jpg?width=447&height=600)
Cycle World reported (Feb 70) "Judging by Bulto's interest, it seems likely that the company could incorporate some of Joe's ideas in future pursangs". Guess what got progressively got ditched in following Mk5&6 pursangs? - the boxy f'glass, the heavy hubs &... its likely the cro-mo frame was next to be persued by the factory itself, not via aftermarket frames. They had to be working on their own by then, cos it reached prod'n in the Mk7 which appeared in ?? late 73??
I don't think there's any doubt JP used a cr-mo frame in Spain 73, but where was it made? Were JPs claims (that it was US made) a case of trumped-up patriotic hubris about US expertise/involvement thats typical of the yanks?
I'm inclined to think that neither Schwerma nor CMS made his 73GP frame(s), but rather, the Barcelona factory did.
I hope it all makes sense. There's a bit more to come later.
-
Were JPs claims (that it was US made) a case of trumped-up patriotic hubris about US expertise/involvement thats typical of the yanks?
I would guess it was more likely to be an assumption or misunderstanding ;) :).
But the intriguing issue is that CMS claimed the win (albeit for one ad). Maybe some misunderstanding on the behalf of an over enthusiastic CMS employee. The deals done, "no more such claims and nothing further will be said".
Someone somewhere will know - keep rattling those American cages Firko ;) :D.
-
Were JPs claims (that it was US made) a case of trumped-up patriotic hubris about US expertise/involvement thats typical of the yanks?
I would guess it was more likely to be an assumption or misunderstanding ;) :).
Yes possibly, Grame
But the intriguing issue is that CMS claimed the win (albeit for one ad).
No they didn't claim that in their ads Graeme. If you go back & read the DR article Geoff posted its not clear who claimed it, but its definitely NOT in any of their ads I've seen.
Maybe some misunderstanding on the behalf of an over enthusiastic CMS employee.
Yes, perhaps
-
But we have JP claiming his frame was US made.
There were about six people sitting around bench racing with Bimbo in our quickshade at CD4 and all of us understood Pomeroys statement to mean that the bike had either been built in the USA or that it featured parts supplied by his Washington based Bultaco dealer sponsor. His answer to the question..."How trick was the bike on which you won the Spanish GP?" being very interesting..."It depends on if you want the official answer or the real story" points to me the perhaps Bultaco (understandably) didn't want it known that the frame and tuneup weren't out of Barcelona but out of Seattle. I'd assume that he'd been told by his Bultaco factory bosses to keep schtum about the bike not being as stock as they'd like the world to know. Unfortunately the CD4 conversation got sidetracked and we never got any deeper into the story.
My theory is that Bultaco had no inkling that Pomeroy would actually win his first ever start in a GP so they weren't as worried about the origin of the frame being used. At the time Bultaco was tied into a Spanish Government controlled European Common Market deal to buy steel from Russia and other eastern block coutries in exchange for supplying tooling and expertise for supersceded Fiat cars to be made in Russia. The Pursangs up to the Mk 6 were made with a Russian low grade almost mild steel and the suposed ''Chro-mo" for the Mk7 while being appreciably lighter, isn't much better in quality. Because of that I threorise that when presented with the option to use the CMS frame, they went for it because they probably figured that nobody would notice or care. Pomeroys win changed all of that and would have put the spin doctors into damage control, hence the CMS frame almost being obliterated from history and Pomeroys "two stories" statement thirty + years later.
-
Mark, I'm not doubting what yr friends at CD4 heard, but there's no hard evidence at all connecting CMS w that frame & only one dubious line about 18mths after the event suggesting it: "When JP won the spanish GP in 73 he rode a CMS frame which is news to us". That DR article also claims "the frame also has long travel rear, the product of 2 years testing". Also dubious at best. That was Nov/Dec 74. Taking into account publishing time lags of the day, LTR wouldn't have existed even in Europe 2yrs before that claim would have been made. It would have been a little over 12mths at best.
What I'm looking for is objective verifiable evidence.
There's more hard evidence linking Schwerma & his frames to Bul riders as early as 71. I personally have not even found any hard evidence proving CMS existed that early (& I've searched hi & low), only hearsay. Geoff doesn't seem to remember accurately exactly when the 1st CMS ads he found were.
Hopefully tomorrow I'll post up an article from Dec74 Modern Cycle for the CMS CZ frame stating: "A new entry in the race for the ultimate rear suspension setup"
Its not as tho the Bul factory had no experience building lightweight frames. They had being doing it for years for the factory trials riders w tubing smuggled back in from england.
The other story about JPs bike being a std bike only appears to my knowledge in the "Pursang Story", published in recent years. (Probably about the time of CD4) None of the accounts I've seen from back in the day attempt to portray it as a standard pursang w a std frame.
-
As I said before why don't you ask Ron Pomeroy?
The search seems have become more speculation and assumption than factual. Ron is probably the closest link you have, unless you can track down his old US sponsor…
-
I found Ron Pomeroys phone # so I'll give him a ring in the morning. I agree with your assumption of the assumption Jeff. I'm betting it's a stocker, despite the hypothetical scenario in my previous post.
-
Maybe a purpose built cro-mo frame built by cms to stocker spec at jp's request ? as vmx42 say's "someone will know" :) whether or not they divulge is another question :D
-
…whether or not they divulge is another question :D
After all this time I don't reckon Bultaco would be calling in the lawyers if somebody did spill the beans… :D
-
OK here's my theory for what it's worth. It can be seen from available photos that whilst the bike was obstensibly a MK6 it had what looks like MK7 guards, rear hub and shoulderless front rim. It it possible that it also had a MK 7 chrome moly (pre production) frame which and please correct me if I'm wrong is identical to the MK6 except for the obvious lighter metal. As best I remember this introduction of next years "trick" parts was part and parcel of the scene back then. I just can't believe that Jim had a USA built frame in his carry on luggage wnen he hopped on the plane to Spain. Cheers Jerry
-
I tried the Ron Pomeroy # this morning but got no answer. I'll try again over the weekend if I get a chance.
-
The search seems have become more speculation and assumption than factual. Ron is probably the closest link you have, unless you can track down his old US sponsor…
I'd have tho't there's a fair bit of conclusive evidence (& some circumstancial evidence) in the pics/links provided especially for those who are familiar w pursangs.
But... what we don't have is any evidence at all specific to JPs 73 Spanish GP bike. Short of that bike surfacing somewhere (& it hasn't in 38yrs) I doubt we'll ever know for certain who built that frame. We will only ever have claims.
It wouldn't surprise me either way - whether it was built in the Bul factory or the US, but it would surprise me if CMS built it. I just can't see any evidence pointing that way - only one dubious claim.
My guess tho is similar to Jerry's; for all intents & purposes it was (or became) a pre-prod'n/prototype Mk7.
-
Here's a few more pics:
Jimmy Odom's 71 Schwerma framed M68 pursang:
(Note how similar the frame is to the later Astros, tho they have a more refined rear loop & tail section)
(http://api.ning.com/files/qukAHzhAS*21rQNx8j6LTZXT3yIBfBJJWEB6z-QGKBwd4fJP*bLekM1VChekoQ-G0qbX5SNXfMY6IHMUcn1Wbb1jwbJrU5kB/SchwermaframedM68JOdom.jpg?width=737&height=442)
Pomeroy's 74 GP bike:
(http://api.ning.com/files/7Hmh5sRvHIvk9FygjGpexbKVbDUpP8BMqH9HYFdbkxScuT9FYxNWfuB9d8rVmud2Zek-ML1XxysSPmm7m*00R2UINSY0kiTT/Pomeroy74GP250bikePopCycle.jpg?width=737&height=486)
Close up of that 74GP bike:
(Jerry, note Mk1 Amal carb still being used.)
(http://api.ning.com/files/qukAHzhAS*3i7FM0wnt*aZzq6Z5D2o-hmcZzWFC8fn*OcpINbLyMf1eFsmKnQQoAfRW2Pe7FwwaFcGdDkx7fZiq2XwhjytQb/pomeroy74250GPbike.jpg?width=444&height=600)
-
Hey JC,
Please don't get me wrong, I have really enjoyed watching you guys search for info on Jims GP bike. OzVMX at its best!!
But from what I have read there has been a lot of informed guess work and a fair bit of speculation to join the missing dots. Now there is nothing wrong with that if it is the best information available, but I just thought you had missed the obvious in not talking to Ron, or trying to track down Jims old sponsor.
Now I only met Jim once, but he wasn't a shy wallflower [by any stretch of the imagination] and he was more than happy to discuss his career in great detail with anybody who was interested. So I will assume [just as guilty as anybody ;)] that with his outgoing personality he would have discussed this subject with others, and Ron is by far the most likely.
Remember they weren't just brothers but also Bultaco teammates so speaking to him can only give you more leads… if he doesn't actually know the answers himself. Hell, he might even know how to contact Jim's old spanish mechanic?
I look forward to more intrigue and I hope you get the answers to your question so your replica can be as accurate as possible.
Good luck, I am looking forward to the next installment…
VMX42
-
No offense taken Jeff. You made a very pertinent point - there's no hard evidence specific to that 73GP bike.
Its quite logical to contact Ron P but I don't have a contact.
I've enjoyed the ride myself. As you said, its the forum at its best!
-
I’ve still got a bet each way.
It’s been an interesting discussion.
So who built the frame for JP's Spanish Gp bike? We've established a definite connection between Schwerma & Bul in MX (not just short track) circa 71. We have what appears to be a factory built cro-mo frame from early 73 w boxed-in pivot area long before CMS's evidence for it. We DON'T see CMS splashing the claim they made JPs frame thro all their ads when it would have foolish business sense NOT to milk it for all its worth (like Bultaco did) if it were true. But we do have JP claiming his frame was US made.
I find it interesting that on one hand we apparently have Jim claiming to have used a US built Cro-mo frame and a company that claims to have made it but you want to believe that it must have been some one else that made it. Small companies can’t always afford advertising, they apparantly employed a sales rep which may have worked better for them in Cal. Maybe if they did advertise more they might have been around longer
It may have been poor business sense not to make more claims of the win, but then the company did fold in 75.
Although I think that was probably more from the Japs getting themselves sorted and the aftermarket frame fad was dying off as the stock frames weren’t so bad.
From contacts I have heard from, CMS were around in 72.
The boxed in pivot as you call it was used as far back as the CZ twin ports, the CMS frame extended the gussets down and included the footpeg mounts into the same gusset, I haven’t noticed any other manufacturer to do that.
I'm inclined to think that neither Schwerma nor CMS made his 73GP frame(s), but rather, the Barcelona factory did.
I think that’s possible too but then you have to wonder why Jim made the claim about a US frame.
I just can't believe that Jim had a USA built frame in his carry on luggage wnen he hopped on the plane to Spain. Cheers Jerry
Actually, those were the days when you could do that.
I have a mate that brought a complete KX 250 home form the US in his luggage in the early 90’s
Maybe some misunderstanding on the behalf of an over enthusiastic CMS employee. The deals done, "no more such claims and nothing further will be said".
Yes, maybe even a misunderstanding on behalf of the journo.
-
Another stand out part of the frames would be the head tube.
CMS used a larger straight tube to accept tapered rollers.
Although again, they may not have done this with the early frames?
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/CMSbultacoframe-8.jpg)
This would be hard to spot behind the number plate in an action shot
Does any body remember Len Williamson racing his CZ-CMS back in the day? I believe in NSW.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/CMS-CZframe-5.jpg)
-
I’ve still got a bet each way.
Yes, me too.
I find it interesting that on one hand we apparently have Jim claiming to have used a US built Cro-mo frame and a company that claims to have made it but you want to believe that it must have been some one else that made it
Geoff, I could equally counter that you want to believe that CMS made it - w'out hard evidence. We have claims, but not hard evidence. Whereas we do have photo evidence that Tom Rapp used a Schwerma MX frame in 71. (That doesn't by any means prove JP used one of his in 73, but it is a link between Bul & Schwerma prior to 73, just as Schwerma claimed.)
What I'm looking for is objective verifiable evidence.
Thats all I'm getting at - looking for evidence to support or refute the claims. I like to be a good deal more objective than just accepting claims. If there's evidence to support the claim that CMS made it - end of story. Until then, its still up in the air for me. Anybody can make claims, & I'm not that gullible that I accept every unsubstantiated one. (Nobody does)
Earlier in the thread I said "I'm inclining to think CMS made the frame", but further evidence seems to indicate otherwise.
And it doesn't matter a lot anyway, its just a talking point really. I don't think there's much doubt JP used a lightweight frame of some kind tho.
Another stand out part of the frames would be the head tube.
CMS used a larger straight tube to accept tapered rollers
I noticed that yesterday too, when I was posting the pics, & I initially tho't it was evidence of B100248 being a CMS frame & was all set to say so. But then I also noticed that is exactly the style headtube & steering stop used by the factory in 72-73 (tho they didn't use tapered rollers). My B107 frame is the same. The later Bul frames have flared ends to the headtube but the early ones don't. So that shot that down for me. The Bul serial # & factory craftsmanship on that frame says a lot for me, but of course it doesn't prove it was JPs frame at the start of the season.
-
Spoke to Firko this morning. He has been ringing Ron but hasn't been able to catch him yet. Will try again on Monday when he gets back from his Blues weekend. As well as asking him about the frame I've asked to try and find out any "special" features of the bike. Untill then......................
-
Thanks JC I noticed the Amal. Peter Schoene also confirmed Amal most likely. Cheers Jerry
-
Finally figured out where to find the correct URL so I can actually show the pics, not just the links, so FWIW I've redone my earlier posts in the thread to make it easier viewing
Heres a few more:
From Dec 74 Modern Cycle:
"A new entry..."
(http://api.ning.com/files/xtknZsRwKDIdYP3Iyy5dg5m4UBPTVg*fEBAdc0azSGHTf3CnfND5gkg2jD1vQ3IMnNO45oi32zUxHvcrdlw-AMZLDTM5YJcN/CMSCZframeModCycleDec74.jpg?width=737&height=334)
And the Bandito-engined Optaco JP was said to have raced at some stage:
(http://api.ning.com/files/liKr1hPlG28VDDdBPXoElWJV1K-kT4hnsrtC5d60XF-1qAUNwaL8VOfsLIPCRzV9vzyJrdnPLTdPdUq9ETMhn4cv2GCO6TUp/Optaco71RHS.jpg?width=737&height=530)
And here's the bike that was claimed to be: "CHAMPION BULTACO 250: MX frame made in 74"
But the evidence it seems indicates otherwise, ie a CMS
(http://api.ning.com/files/zqUyxdDXCEphdbH1sPuW55S6Oxt89kq6aZKlCvSJzp5*1m2Ds4L5mbwCYKG7k9f9fSMkdjPPuAyJLhag6yFzXZs7riPZ4gvk/ChampionBultaco25074edit.jpg?width=737&height=483)
-
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/dsc00599rd8.jpg)
Looks a 'Good Thing' doesn't it.
Any one up for a replica ;) ;D.
-
(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/dsc00599rd8.jpg)
Looks a 'Good Thing' doesn't it.
Any one up for a replica ;) ;D.
it's a Bloody ugly sucker i reckon.
-
Apparently it was heavier than standard ::) :P.
But hey, it looks as trick as 8)
-
If Ron turns up at Diamond Don's, with a bit of liquid lubrication to loosen him up, we may find out some more. ;) ;)
-
So here's a few of the diff versions in print, in chronological order as published - all attributed to JP:
Quote 1 "We got there in Spain about a week & a half before the GP & went to the factory. My bikes werent finished. They werent done! I was getting so nervous & sick cos I couldn't believe it. My bikes werent finished. Some english riders Malcolm Davis & Vic Allan & some other dudes, were there at the factory... & helped get the bikes done. Fri a'noon about 1pm we finished & the practise started at 4pm. So we got the bikes done, just took them straight to the track... (How was your bike?) ... It was really similar. [ie to std pursang] The diff I felt was the handling. It was lighter & it just changed a lot the handling. It was [emphasis his] harder to ride cos it had more power & it was lighter... I had to dig up some new betors that worked. Its a smaller shock & ea shock is a pound lighter than a std shock". (DB Nov73, same issue they had Superbowl 2 report)
Interview no doubt conducted when JP was in US in the 6wk mid-season break after 7th GP. Its the closest record I've found to the actual GP in Apr 73, & apart from the shocks he didnt seem to know much about the bike & why it was lighter!
Quote 2 "I went to Spain for about 2wks first [when he 1st arrived in Europe at beginning of 73], picked up 2 standard bikes to use in Feb & Mar in [pre-season] races in Belgium... I got there [Spain, later in Mar/Apr] about 3 days before the race to see my bikes & see if they were OK & they werent even finished. I was worried but they finished the bikes about 2hrs before practice started the day before the race. (How special were the GP Buls?) They werent too special compared to the Suzukis & Maicos & everything. (Did the factory build it the way you wanted it?) I didnt know how I wanted it. I'm used to riding a std bike & thats what I wanted. About all it had was a cro-mo frame made in the states. Its not very good. Its made too light & it cracks everywhere. The Bul factory frame is better-handling cos it feels like its stronger & doesnt flex as much, but that day I was patriotic & I said, OK, I'll use everything American today" (Cycle Illustrated Jul74; Interview conducted probably by Terry Pratt "in late 73", 8-9mths after the GP)
Quote 3 "Pomeroy's pursang was embarrassingly stock. The only change had been a cro-mo frame w stock geometry & some one-off betor shocks that had been built for this race. Unfortunately the guy at the Betor factory who built them forgot how he did it or lost the design or something cos they were unable to duplicate the rear suspension for the rest of the season" (CI Jul 74 by John Huetter)
Quote 4 " 'Just before the race I collected my bike in a crate from the old factory... it had to be assembled & prepared to race'. It took Jim until Fri a'noon before the GP to get the 250 pursang together. He went straight from the factory to the track for practice around 4pm. With a brand new & unproven bike he didn't break any record initially but was reportedly the fastest Bul rider out there... 'I was actually a privateer when I won that 1st race'... Jim had started the 73 season on a production 250 Bultaco Pursang... Modified bikes would take their place the following season; however Jim never equalled the results which he achieved on true prod'n machinery [in 73]. '1974 was a bigger change year for me than 73... Whatever I wanted from the factory, I got'." (VMX#3, c2000.)
ie The story is significantly diff years later.
Quote 5 "Three days before the Spanish GP, I took a Pursang out of the crate, assembled it & took it to my 1st GP... I had no mechanics at the time, only a support program thro the University Bultaco dealership in Seattle. I was not a good mechanic, but a new bike out of the crate was best for me. I needed nothing more to boost my confidence" (The Pursang Story, published 2003)
Really Jim, you took a bike out of the crate, at the factory!! There were none that weren't already crated? The 'standard pursang' story it seems only surfaced 27yrs after the event.
Quote 6 "With help from a Bultaco dealership I headed off to race in the MX WC in 73. Still riding basically a privateer Bultaco Pursang I won my debout round" (Classic Bultaco MX M'cycles, pub 2006
My hunch is that the real story is the 1st one (in DB), closest to the event.
Here's a few other claims in print, all attributed to JP, that weren't accurate:
"My time was set for pole pos'n" (He was 2nd; Andersson was on pole)
"At the 3rd GP in Belgium the Yamaha monoshock appeared... the bike made everyones imagination run wild w Hakan Andersson riding. We changed our bike just weeks after that" (He was still using standard suspension in the US after the 7th GP & in the 8th GP after the 6wk mid-season break)
"I'd won the 250 US championship... by 72" (He came 5th in 72 & never won a US championship AFAIK) Edit: He did reportedly win a US 250 Cup in 71 or 72, whatever that is)
"Jim Pomeroy won the 1st ever indoorMX, the Superbowl at the LA Coliseum" (Tripes did; JP doesn't feature in the results; he came 2nd at the 2nd Superbowl)
"Jim never aqualled the results he achieved [in 73]". (No, he bettered them in 76 coming 4th in world; he came 7th in 73)
My point is not to denigrate JP - he was & still is one of my most pre-eminent stars whom I hold w the highest esteem - he may have been mis-quoted. (My hunch is that JP just wasn't a fine-details man.) My point is that you can't believe everything in print. For me, the jury's still out on claims that are unsubstantiated. Just like in court, if we want to get to the bottom of a story we need evidence.
Otherwise all we have is what VMX42 rightly calls: more speculation and assumption than factual
If I took all claims at face value I'd be still believing there are 60 Alrons out there somewhere!
-
Case in point - Schwerma's claims in Jul 71 Motorcycle World on his pursang & bandito frames:
"Doug started the Bultaco project a scant 3wks before last years TransAMA MX series. A concentrated 21 day effort saw the frames thro conception, design & construction stages. By the 1st event Bultaco team riders had prototype frames on the starting line. The early frames were brazed together & were not w'out their problems but the terrific hammering of international competition proved to be an ideal test ground for the experimental versions. 'We got a years worth of learning in 6wks', Doug says. Now all the frames & s'arms are heli-arced together but the design remains about the same."
For me, that was in the "may-or-may-not be true" category, until I found photo evidence of Tom Rapp riding a Schwerma-framed M68 in 71.
The CMS connection is still in the "may-or-may-not be true" category for me, until we get conclusive evidence of the link.
Small companies can’t always afford advertising
I didn't mean running special ads announcing they made JPs frame, Geoff. I just meant including a line in the ads they did run, which would hardly have cost a few $ more.
-
And here's the bike that was claimed to be: "CHAMPION BULTACO 250: MX frame made in 74"
But the evidence it seems indicates otherwise, ie a CMS
(http://api.ning.com/files/zqUyxdDXCEphdbH1sPuW55S6Oxt89kq6aZKlCvSJzp5*1m2Ds4L5mbwCYKG7k9f9fSMkdjPPuAyJLhag6yFzXZs7riPZ4gvk/ChampionBultaco25074edit.jpg?width=737&height=483)
That looks everybit a CMS to me judging by the look of the swingarm pivot, the length of the head gusset coming down the front tube and the swingarm gussets.
Tried to look closer at the snail cams but I can't zoom in clearly with that size image
Where was it quoted as being a Champion? And when, back in the day or recently?
Show me another Champion frame that looks similar and I will reconsider my view.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/CMSbultacoframe-7.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/CMSbultacoframe-5.jpg)
-
I didn't mean running special ads announcing they made JPs frame, Geoff. I just meant including a line in the ads they did run, which would hardly have cost a few $ more.
Just looking at it from the other side of the fence.
My pipes have been on a couple of dozen title winning bikes over the years but I haven’t made a big deal of it.
# To be sure that it was my pipe as some guys swap bikes and parts so much
# I can sell quicker than I can build, so by pushing things more just causes more grief if I can’t supply.
Possibly like CMS, I will only regret this when work slows down and its too late to build the momentum again.
I also wonder if Bultaco may have been experimenting with different frames and parts and it was by chance that Jim used a US built frame, he may not have known it’s source and CMS may not have been aware initially it was theirs until later in the game as Bultaco wouldn’t have wanted to share credit.
Don’t know about this Shwerma thing you keep mentioning.
He has made no claim to Jims frame and you haven’t shown that he has made any frame so close to stock that it’s hard to tell the difference, which seems to be the case for Jims bike.
I’m running with …
# 50 % Jim used a CMS frame
# 40 % Jim used a special Bultaco frame
# 10% Someone has built a time machine and changed history as we know it.
-
This is good healthy debate IMHO Geoff. As I've said elsewhere on this forum I'm a great believer in that famous statemant, "Men are never more likely to settle a matter rightly as when they are allowed to discuss it freely"
And here's the bike that was claimed to be: "CHAMPION BULTACO 250: MX frame made in 74"
But the evidence it seems indicates otherwise, ie a CMS
That looks everybit a CMS to me judging by the look of the swingarm pivot, the length of the head gusset coming down the front tube and the swingarm gussets.
Tried to look closer at the snail cams but I can't zoom in clearly with that size image
Where was it quoted as being a Champion? And when, back in the day or recently?
Show me another Champion frame that looks similar and I will reconsider my view.
Yes Geoff, thats what I'm saying. The claim is that its a Champion, but the evidence is that its a CMS. I'm going w that.
The bike was advertised in Old Bike Journal #76, 12/96 & also featured in La Voz de SMOG #35 10/96
Don’t know about this Shwerma thing you keep mentioning.
He has made no claim to Jims frame
He wouldn't have made any claims if it was a factory built frame, which for me on the evidence is the most likely scenario.
you haven’t shown that he has made any frame so close to stock that it’s hard to tell the difference, which seems to be the case for Jims bike.
With respect Geoff, neither have you. There are no pics of CMS frames in 73 & the pics of later CMS frames are noticeably diff to pursang frames of 73.
What I have shown previously is Schwerma frames for the Mk4 pursang in 70-71 that are very very similar to the pursang frame of that era, incl the very distinctive rear subframe & the top-shock mounts that I've not seen on any other manufacturers OEM frame or aftermarket frame except Schwerma's pursang ones. (ie the rear uprights extending above the horizontal seat tubes then bending horizontal for the shock mounts). It takes a fairly observant eye to see there are some diffs in the engine cradle & bot front engine mount of the Schwerma frame to the pursang one.
(http://api.ning.com/files/ywKZHON0zShsDZu5UMGd8joIrmAKWUJZl4s8-pcY6ZUcEEYDjxeBErkzoeYlTTZZhROF93D9rVbUeQcH0i8fBKtorqYb0fXm/Schwerma71Bulframe2.jpg?width=648&height=600)
The later Astro frames are very similar to these Schwerma ones too, including that engine cradle - yet another Schwerma-Bul link.
And in another bit of relevant info I've just found, JP states in 2006: "While riding a custom-built 250 Bul Pursang at age 18 I completed in my 1st professional US 250 class MX race... at Puyallup". That is confirmed on the legends website as the last round of the 1970 TransAMA - exactly when Schwerma said he was involved w providing the Bul riders frames, for which I've posted evidence above (Tom Rapps M68).
Thats plenty of links between Schwerma & Bul, but nothing conclusive for for providing JP's 73 GP frame. Just as there is nothing conclusive about CMS providing it.
Having pawed more over the factory frame I posted earlier (B100248) & Bul fabrication of the era, I've found more evidence indicating to me that its a factory frame, which I'll put in another post.
-
"Men are never more likely to settle a matter rightly as when they are allowed to discuss it freely"
…boy that is a bit deep for a discussion about a 30 year old motorcycle. :D
-
(http://api.ning.com/files/wog2Om8Vb5yduoCP6UfB2dn6qA9z-847GH9DnpciPifxamsI8bGJA5cy-jAZD4Nm*kex2GfFs5UIsdjWFn8ec1GXZF4yiLrg/BulworksframeforUSridersmaybepomeroys.jpg?width=436&height=600)
(http://api.ning.com/files/ywKZHON0zSgHYV6HOVh8NsfGGKKZOO9q*oeMtHG8G19EXNgSI7Wo5u3RlyvK39FInZS5p3WretlhNZsG7Da87pIc-lh0UBA-/BulworksframeforUSriders2maybepomeroy.jpg?width=436&height=600)
I've preveiously noted the distinctive Mk5-6 pursang seat brackets (but can't find a pic that scans w clear enough detail). Later pursang brackets were same shape but pressed steel, instead of having a small gusset welded perpendicular to the bracket.
Neither the CMS or Schwerma frames are anything like it, as you can see if you compare them.
The rear subframe/top-shock-mounts are classic pursang, which I've never seen on any CMS frame.
The headstock gusset shape incl the distinctive slot for a weld to the downtube close to the headstock exactly images Mk5&6 pursangs (Mk7 & later were diff). The late 74 CMS frame has that welded slot too, but again, which came 1st? Bul were doing it 70-71.
Altho pursangs used single plates for the s'arm pivot, from Mk4 M6801885 onwards (Nov 1970) they used boxed in gussets for the footpeg area. Its only a small step from there to box-in the whole pivot area. My guess is that that system is lighter & stronger than a thick plate on ea side but more expensive to fabricate, so some of the works/protoypes frames got the boxed in system but prod'n bikes got the cheaper thick single plates.
Those are all examples of a fabricators signature techniques that you (rightly) argued for before, Geoff, & any Pursang tragic should be able to confirm them.
So for me, the most likely scenario for JPs 73 Spanish GP frame, in order of preference/liklihood is:
1) Factory built prototype lightweight frame
2) Schwerma built frame
3) CMS frame
Each are entitled to their own conclusions.
-
Good stuff ! nothing like a good mystery :D for me confirmation from colleague's / family or friends looks good at the moment :-\ all great info but too many if's but's and maybe's ! cheers
-
Too true!
But in the absence of any conclusive evidence or definitve knowledge we've put on our best Sherlock caps & are trying to solve the mystery.
Got any contributions?
-
Not at the moment !other than the picture showing the shockmount/loop on gp bike looking very factory,anybody got any contacts in the good'ol US?
-
At the time Bultaco was tied into a Spanish Government controlled European Common Market deal to buy steel from Russia and other eastern block coutries in exchange for supplying tooling and expertise for supersceded Fiat cars to be made in Russia.
Shit Firko do you realise the magnitude of that statement? I'm not doubting the voracity of it just that it's historical implications are profound.
Franco loathed communist with a passion. He made McCarthy look like a kindergarden teacher. Such is realpolitik I suppose.
A few years ago I heard a story that made me re-evaluate the whole apartheid regime being equally anti-communist. Story goes that, after the fall of the "wall", a high ranking SA air force officer was touring a Russian jet engine manufacturing facility. He was greeted with warmth and, obvious, familiarity. "What gives?" asked one of his companions. Apparently the SA air force had been working with the Russkis for years to integrate Russian jet engines into the Mirage III airframe. Even before the collapse of communisim.
Politicians speak with forked tongue.
-
Don’t know about this Shwerma thing you keep mentioning.
The reason is because of the established links between him & the factory/riders indicating he provided Pursang cro-mo frames for them prior to beginning of 73:
claims he did so during 1970 TransAMA
report/claim JP rode a "custom built 250 pursang" in last TransAMA of 1970
photo evidence of Tom Rapps bike 70-71 using Scnwerma frame
photo-evidence showing similarity of his frames to pursang frames of the era
photo evidence of Jim Odoms 71 bike showing Schwerma frame
There are no such connections for CMS
It surely is therefore logical & likely that if JP/Bul wanted to get a US-made frame in late 72/early 73 for the 73 GP season, they would have gotten it from Schwerma.
You seem to be ignoring all that
But of course, there's no conclusive evidence one way or the other for the scource of that 73GP frame. And even if Ron P says that it was a factory frame, Schwerma/Champion frame or CMS frame, that is still only a claim (38 yrs after the event!), not conclusive evidence.
Just re-looking at the CMS frame ads & pics of #42U with CMS frame, its not actually clear whether the CMS Bul frames even have the boxed-in pivot area like B100248 frame, or just double-plated pivot area like CZs & the CMS CZ frames.
-
Mark, if you do get to speak w Ron P, it might be worth asking if he knows/remembers what happened to JPs Spanish GP bike, or his Superbowl 2 bike. (And if they were same/diff bike)
-
It surely is therefore logical & likely that if JP/Bul wanted to get a US-made frame in late 72/early 73 for the 73 GP season, they would have gotten it from Schwerma.
You seem to be ignoring all that
But of course, there's no conclusive evidence one way or the other for the scource of that 73GP frame. And even if Ron P says that it was a factory frame, Schwerma/Champion frame or CMS frame, that is still only a claim (38 yrs after the event!), not conclusive evidence.
Just re-looking at the CMS frame ads & pics of #42U with CMS frame, its not actually clear whether the CMS Bul frames even have the boxed-in pivot area like B100248 frame, or just double-plated pivot area like CZs & the CMS CZ frames.
No, not ignoring it, its just that Schwerma wasn’t the only guy making frames in Ca. in the 70’s and there is no claim that I’m aware of that he made a frame for JP in 73.
There is however a comment relating to CMS & the 73 GP which I don’t think we should rule out altogether.
Also, the story as I understood it was that JP didn’t go to Europe to race the GPs in 73, it just happened while he was there. If it was planned then Bultaco would probably not have let him use another frame.
I’ve been wondering why you have been calling the swingarm pivot area “boxed in”
Typically the CMS frames are 2 plates about 25mm apart strengthened by connecting tubes. The top tube being the swingarm pivot, the lower tube is for the footpeg mount and the middle tube is for the brake pedal pivot. This is how the CMS-CZ frame is anyway. You can just make it out in the add pictures and this is my only close up – a cad drawing from my files.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Swingarmgussets.jpg)
The angle of the ‘42U’ picture doesn’t let us see but the ad pictures show it as 2 plates.
Have also been trying to look close at the ‘works” frame JC put up but it’s hard to make out in low resolution.
The other interesting thing is the head gussets and the welded slot into the down tube
From one of my CMS-CZ frames
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/CMS-frame-nickeB.jpg)
From JC’s picture from Hugh’s Bultaco
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Worksbultacoframe-2.jpg)
This is what I would call typical of CMS frames, are you saying that standard Bultaco frames used it too?
The engine cradle of the CMS - Bultaco frame and the Hugh’s Bultaco frame looks very similar also
From CMS ad
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/CMSbultacoframe-9.jpg)
From Hugh’s Bultaco
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Worksbultacoframe-1.jpg)
This only begs the chicken / egg question….
Did CMS copy a Works Bultaco frame?
Or
Did Bultaco copy a CMS frame?
Also what makes a frame a works frame….
Is it a special frame supplied from Bultaco?
Or
Any frame that a sponsored Bultaco rider used?
Can you enlighten us on the significance of Hugh’s Bultaco JC?
So far all we’ve really achieved is to hijack Jerry’s thread and raise more questions than answers.
-
My 72-73 ' mk5 has the welded slots in gusset,also straight headtube with tapered bearings ?
-
I’ve been wondering why you have been calling the swingarm pivot area “boxed in”
Yes Geoff I know the CMS CZ frame is double-plated at the pivot just as you describe. But I've been referring to what the "factory frame" (# B100248 from Hugh's Bultaco - pics above) has as boxed-in. ie on the front side of the double plates it has another plate between the 2 plates, perpendicular to them & joining them (so dirt can't get in; to brace/strengthen it etc).
I tho't it was obvious on the pics posted above of that frame. Its certainly quite obvious on the original (which anyone can check if they have the book)
I tho't the CMS Bul frame in the CMS ad & on bike #42U had that same boxed-in pivot area, ie was not just double-plated but boxed-in, which I had tho't was a possible similarity/link between the "factory frame" & CMS - signature fabrication/craftsmanship etc. But of course I now know its not
As I said in my last post above, on further checking the pics closely this morning, I see its not clear that any CMS frame has it. Not only have you confirmed that they don't, & that they only use double-plating, but I also just found evidence from #42U rebuild that his CMS frame is not boxed-in but is double-plated
(http://gdnomad.smugmug.com/Vintage-Motocross/1974-Bultaco-360-rebuild/IMG0774/82062164_Sz8DM-L.jpg)
The other interesting thing is the head gussets and the welded slot into the down tube
This is what I would call typical of CMS frames, are you saying that standard Bultaco frames used it too?
The engine cradle of the CMS - Bultaco frame and the Hugh’s Bultaco frame looks very similar also
Yes Geoff, thats exactly what I'm saying above on both counts.
The engine cradle is exactly the same as all pursangs back to Mk3 (from 68/69). The slotted gusset is exactly the same as Mk5 & 6 pursangs (72 & 72) but I can't scan a pic w clear enough detail to show it. Its one of the distictive details about that frame that ties it to 72-73 for me.
My 72-73 ' mk5 has the welded slots in gusset,also straight headtube with tapered bearings
Thanks Huskibul. (I'd think the tapered brgs would be aftermarket but I could be wrong. Mk7s & 8s had them)
This only begs the chicken / egg question….
Did CMS copy a Works Bultaco frame?
Or
Did Bultaco copy a CMS frame?
Exactly what I was thinking a couple of days ago. But since there's no evidence of CMS Bul frames prior to Nov/Dec 74 & plenty of evidence of the features on prod'n pursang frames looong before that I've had to conclude that CMS copied Bultaco, just like they did w their CZ-copy frames.
Also what makes a frame a works frame….
Is it a special frame supplied from Bultaco?
Or
Any frame that a sponsored Bultaco rider used?
In this case (frame B100248) "It is a genuine factory racing frame used by Bultaco sponsored riders while racing in the US". I quoted that above, quite a few posts ago.
Can you enlighten us on the significance of Hugh’s Bultaco JC
Hugh's is the most pre-eminent Bultaco place in the US & perhaps the world. He was a rider & dealer (IIRC) back in the day, has barnfuls of Buls now (literally), & is also the custodian of many Bul treasures of historical significance. He is regarded as a real authority on Bultacos & was very friendly/familiar w JP when he was stil alive
So far all we’ve really achieved is to hijack Jerry’s thread and raise more questions than answers
I'd have tho't it'd be helpful to Jerry for building his replica. Apologies Jerry if it ain't.
-
No apologies required guys. I'm loving it!!. When and if we all agree on the frame then the problem may be chasing one down! Did I mention that the one I have in my garage looks like it could be a "factory" frame! Cheers Jerry.
-
Photos please!
-
(http://api.ning.com/files/liKr1hPlG28VDDdBPXoElWJV1K-kT4hnsrtC5d60XF-1qAUNwaL8VOfsLIPCRzV9vzyJrdnPLTdPdUq9ETMhn4cv2GCO6TUp/Optaco71RHS.jpg?width=737&height=530)
I saw this bike in person at the University Honda/Bultaco dealer in Seattle, WA in the mid-'70s when I was building my Honda XL350. They were the local sponsor for Jimmy Pomeroy and their Engineer/Builder was named Al Oppie. He did center port cylinder head mods to the early XL350 heads before the factory built them that way and that is how I met him. Really nice guy, used to build Offenhauser-Indy race engines. A few years later he went into a partnership with Bob Braverman (former magazine writer/publisher) building high performance Ducati bikes in Southern California. They called their shop Powerhouse Performance and built the Ducatis with big 44mm Mikuni conversions. They also built custom Honda XL350/403cc engines with lots of trick parts and the same 44mm Mikuni carbs. One magazine drag raced one of their XL403 bikes against a Kawasaki 900Z1 and the little Honda stayed in front through the 1/8th mile where the power and gearing of the Kaw Z1 pulled out in front.
Just thought I would add a bit on the Optaco and Jimmy's sponsor.
-
Swiss would you have Al Oppies contact details by any chance? Perhaps he could throw some light on the great frame debate. Cheers Jerry
-
Thanks Swiss. My immediate tho't when I 1st saw that bike (above) was: What would it do to yr knees? Pain pain pain!! No wonder JP had shot knees w artificial (steel) joints by 76!
Also, the story as I understood it was that JP didn’t go to Europe to race the GPs in 73, it just happened while he was there. If it was planned then Bultaco would probably not have let him use another frame
I've heard a few versions of what happened & how - some out of left field. The most consistent reports seem to indicate:
He was sent to Europe mainly by US Bultaco to train up w Marcell Weirtz (Belgian Bul importer & GP rider)in Belgium for 2.5mths, doing some I'national pre-season races there & the 1st GP in Spain, then come home to race the US nationals. John Grace (former Bul factory roadracer in UK/Europe), one of the then-chiefs in Bul USA told Snr Bulto, I'm sending you a young US rider I think you'll like. After 2mths he (JP) hated it & wanted to go home.
JP himself said (in Cycle News Nov 12, 97) "I (signed) to do 1 GP in Europe; the Spanish GP. I ended up winning it, & then my contract was redone & I stayed the season".
The trinaing was very effective in getting his speed up. He was quoted in Cycle Illust'd: "The 1st time I went there [a track in Belgium] it took 2min 35sec to make a lap. But then for 2mths I was cutting it down shorter & shorter & shorter. I'd be training w Marcel & once in a while Gaston Rahier or someone else would come out... Anyway, from 2min 35 I got it down to 2min & 7secs & I could make the same lap time every time for 45mins"
One of my favourite stories about JP, from the same Cycle News is that Joel Robert was quoted as once calling him "the fastest man in GP racing". I asked Joel about that at CD5. His reply was, "I don't recall saying that but he was very fast & could have been world champion except he kept breaking wheels"
Another bit of relevant info that shows why I'm reluctant to believe claims in print without conclusive evidence is that it was claimed in "Historia de la Pursang" (2003):
"In this period [70-71], collaborations w Joel Robert were intensified. [theres a pic of him riding a Mk4 w'out a helmet in June 71 giving 'classes to Bultaco riders in San Antonio']. The champion, official Suzuki racer, was about to sign up w Bultaco, & an engine was made according to his instructions under maximum secrecy, & known by the anagram of his surname - Trevor". I also asked Joel about that at CD5 & he responded w some astonishment - as if it was news to him - politely but clearly indicating that there was not truth in it.
-
Looking forward to what Firko has to say if he speaks to Ron Pomeroy.
-
Jerry,
Sorry, I haven't seen Al since he did my cylinder head from side to center port and then a bit later did a magneto adapter for me to run an XL125 magneto on my XL350. That was in the mid-70s. Only thing I heard after that (moved from the Seattle area) was when he opened the shop with Bob Braverman and was doing the special Honda builds.
Swiss
He would be in his 80s or 90s by now? Can't remember the names of the Father/Son who owned University Honda/Bultaco? Been too long but I used to run into them at the Puyallup MX track on occasion. They had the MX rider Buck Murphey as their sponsored rider on their Honda XL special and I loved seeing it kick some butt on the big Maico bikes. They were supposed to run it for the Trans-AMA race but they broke the tranny in practice the week before and couldn't get replacement gears and get it back together fast enough. Don't think that they had the Bell/Webster gears at that time. Buck showed up for the race on of all things a Rokon MX model. Well it rained cats and dogs and 1/2 of the track was flooded and they almost called the race off. With the belt drive, Buck struggled and almost made it around the track for 1 lap before he gave up because the bike wouldn't even pull itself around through the muddy ponds that were all around the track. The inside of the banked turn at the end of the start straight was almost 3' deep in water and the water covered over 1/2 the turn. It was a mess racing!
The University Honda XL440 said to weigh 221lbs. Built in 1974
(http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p438/sscf_2008/UniversityHonda222lbXL403MX.jpg)
Swiss
-
When and if we all agree on the frame then the problem may be chasing one down! Did I mention that the one I have in my garage looks like it could be a "factory" frame! Cheers Jerry.
Are you serious or being facetious about the frame in yr garage? Can you describe it? Or better still, post a pic?
I found this in 97 LaVoz de SMOG classifieds:
"For sale or trade...M89 frame, it's chrome-molly, don't ask me how".
(M89 is Mk5 125 pursang, 1972)
-
Begs the question were the 125's a different frame (maybe cro-mo)to the 250/325 ?
-
Looking forward to what Firko has to say if he speaks to Ron Pomeroy.
Me too....It's Sunday over there so I'll ring him early tomorrow morning (our time). I'm just back from three days of doing the baby boomer mosh pit thing at the Goulburn Blues Festival and I'm walking wounded, I've picked up an annoying dose of diarrhea, I'm passing a kidney stone and I'm carrying a killer hangover, the triple whammy! I had a monster time though!
While I've been out of town this thread seems to have grown legs. I've just gone through the thread from post 1 and while I think some interesting points have been raised, I think some of them are a bit misleading. Here are my thoughts as the thread stands at the moment.
• I think it’s probable that Pomeroy’s ’73 Spanish GP bike featured an aftermarket frame. The claim made by CMS in the Dirt Rider piece is backed by Pomeroy himself and respected journalist Frank Melling (JCs post #20) which to me is interesting.
• The statement by Pomeroy to at least eight people at CD4 that there were two official stories, the official story that it was a factory prepped stocker and the real story that it’d been prepared by his American sponsor, presumably Terry Saxland from University Bultaco or Al Oppie. The fact that Pomeroy often contradicts himself by using either story at different times confuses the matter even more….
“Three days before the Spanish GP I took a Pursang out of the crate, assembled it and took it to my first GP ever.....I had no mechanics at the time, only a support program through University Bultaco in Seattle. I was not a good mechanic but a new bike out of the crate was best for me”. (Pursang Story excerpt, Stans post # 18 ) This contradicts his statements in other interviews, hinting that Pomeroy would use either story, depending on the situation at hand.
• The big question is ….Who made the frame? Let’s look at the possibilities.
CMS. This little one man factory is the only maker to have actually claimed that they’d made the frame.
Doug Schwerma/Champion . As big a fan I am of the late Dougs work, I feel that his particular design quirks put him out of the race. Observing Schwerma’s penchant for promotion and the company’s higher profile, I would also have presumed that the Pomeroy connection would have come to light at some stage during the company’s existence.
Dr Joe Bolger. I doubt Joe had anything to do with this particular bike. By 1973 he was beginning a relationship with OSSA and it’s been rumoured that the Phantom and M.A.R. trials bike may have featured some of Joes input. The fact that Bolger was East Coast based contradicts the “California made” claims as well.
The Bultaco Factory. If not for the ‘made in America’ claims, my money would be on the frame being made in the Barcelona factory, possibly using imported Chro-Mo steel tubing.
I hope that Ron Pomeroy can finally put an end to our guesswork. I’ll also ask him if Jims sponsor, Terry Saxland is still around and if so, has he a contact #. If that lead comes off, I’ll contact Saxland. If those two blokes don’t know, nobody will know.
-
Thanks, Terry Saxlund was the shop owner of University Honda/Bultaco and he, his son and Al Oppie built the Honda XL pictured above. If Terry is no longer around, Ron should know his son's name and that might be another path to investigate. I am sure that Terry's son would have hung around the shop while Jimmy was sponsored by them.
Swiss
-
I wish! Sorry JC ( my sense of humour) the only factory aspect is that it was made in one (with probably a dirt floor!) However I do think (hope) it may be a chrome moly one as I think this bike might have a little bit of Bert Flood history. As you may know it's a 125.Its been radically ported has a professionally strengthened swingarm a MK7 Paintjob on the tank and a different exhaust hanger bracket that was not seen untill the MK7 model. It also has a MK7 front brake hub. Peter Schoene is going to have a look. He will know if Floody had his hands on it. Cheers Jerry
PS I will weigh the frame when I get a chance. Would about 12 kg be the figure I'm looking for to confirm Chrome moly?
-
Just to confuse the subject here is my spare unmolested Mk7 frame and swing arm.
The bare Mk7 frame weighs 8.545kg's and the bare swing arm weighs 2.570kg's.
Stan.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Frames/frames002.jpg)
-
respected journalist Frank Melling (JCs post #20)
He also claimed JPs bike weighed 15lbs under the FIM weight limilt at the Spanish GP!!
I don't think anybody was suggesting Joe Bolger built it. AFAIK he didn't build frames
However I do think (hope) it may be a chrome moly one as I think this bike might have a little bit of Bert Flood history. As you may know it's a 125.Its been radically ported has a professionally strengthened swingarm a MK7 Paintjob on the tank and a different exhaust hanger bracket that was not seen untill the MK7 model. It also has a MK7 front brake hub.
Jerry, it does seem like some of the late MK6s had many MK7 features. Is yrs a late #?
-
Let you know soon.
-
VB 10001410 ENGINE AND FRAME. VIC BITTER???
-
VB 10001410 ENGINE AND FRAME. VIC BITTER???
Very Best ;D
-
Could be Stanley must have been hot in the welding bay om a summers day in downtown Barcelona. Any joy with the rear hub? Cheers Jerry PS Has this thread got some life or what?
-
He also claimed JPs bike weighed 15lbs under the FIM weight limilt at the Spanish GP!
John you seem to have dismissed Frank Melling as some sort of charlatan because 1: He "sounds geriatric" and 2: He makes a dubious statement about the weight of a bike that nobody knows the truth about anyway... Mellings book, 'Motocross: The Big Leap' is regarded my many students of our sports history, including myself as one of the better and more informative books written on the period immediately prior to the suspension revolution. It's a classic.
Using that book as a research source, I'd like to pick you up on a small but important mistake you've attributed to Melling that when quoted correctly puts quite a different slant on your criticism of Mellings statement.
''Jim Pomeroys bike was 15lbs lighter than the standard production bikes at the Spanish Grand Prix thanks largely to his lightweight, American made chrome-molybendum frames" (Frank Melling 'The Big Leap' page 103). The misquote of the bike being "15 lbs under the FIM limit rather than 15 lbs under the weight of a stock Mk6 Pursang puts the quote back into reality. Dropping 15lbs off a lumpy mild steel framed Pursang is most definitely more easily achievable that getting it under the FIM minimum weight limit
-
Is Frank still alive?
-
Yes Mark, the quote I read (& posted early in the thread) is definitely one of the main reasons I've doubted the 'frame made in US' claims. Back in the day, in the early 70's Melling nearly always did sound like a geriatric to me. But it was the ridiculous-ness of that claim that made me doubt the veracity of the US-made frame claims.
But yr right about the book, "MX; The Big Leap" of which I have a copy & thoroughly enjoy. Much of that was his later work.
The quote you posted above from that book does indeed put an entirely diff - & believable - slant on it.
However, what I posted is as it was published from Frank's pen in 3/74 CI (edit: which is the only one I was aware of at the time):
"JPs bike was 15lbs under the FIM min wt limit of 196lbs at the Spanish GP"
It wasn't a "misquote"! I'm very particular about quoting accurately.
The 2 amount to entirely different things.
Another couple of clues I think may connect the dots are:
JP says in a couple of reports that he got a new bike from a crate at the factory, implying it was a std pursang. But... a crate from where? Methinks one that had been shipped from his US dealership! That fits w several of the other reports/claims/clues.
In the 7/74 CI i'view, JP states that after the 72 TransAMA, Bultaco hinted that he go to Europe, so he went to New York to discuss it. They said they'd think it over & most likely fly him over in Jan. It seems the trip was mostly organised by US Bultaco in NY. Perhaps they then put a bike together & shipped it to Spain/factory for the GP. In the mean time JP would ride std bikes in the pre-season races in Belgium. (He would have got there before the crated bike)
Terry Saxland was the owner of the dealership (in Seattle, Washington IIRC) he rode for, but I believe Skip Kretz was the mechanic/builder of some of his US bikes.
More of the dots are starting to connect more convincingly. So, now I am inclining to think it was a US-prepped bike w a US made frame.
Observing Schwerma’s penchant for promotion and the company’s higher profile, I would also have presumed that the Pomeroy connection would have come to light at some stage during the company’s existence.
Good point. Champion was often in the mags of the day; tests, articles, promo's etc. Also, he seemed to concentrate on Flat-track after his initial foray into MX in 70-71 (as posted above).
What I haven't seen so far is any evidence linking CMS to Bultaco, esp that early. If the bike was shipped from US, it would have had to have been built soon after the end of 72 TransAMA. I haven't seen evidence that CMS existed &/or made frames that early. Tho that doesn't preclude it from being a CMS frame such evidence sure would help.
Perhaps it was neither a Schwerma/Champion, CMS nor Barcelona/factory made frame, but somebody on the east coast. (JP went to NY to "talk it over") Anybody know any frame makers on the east coast?
I would think that if you could contact Terry Saxland or Skip Kretz, Mark, they would know for sure. (Altho I guess they wouldn't be young now & there's a lot of water under the bridge in 38yrs.)
Interestingly I found a Cycle Imports ad in Jan 75 T&T advertising Hindall, CMS, & TPOS frames for CZs, which I'll post up tomorrow. Has anybody heard of TSOP frames?
-
Interestingly I found a Cycle Imports ad in Jan 75 T&T advertising Hindall, CMS, & TPOS frames for CZs, which I'll post up tomorrow. Has anybody heard of TSOP frames?
On a note of personal interest, I wonder if they actually imported any Hindall frames into Oz? No idea of TSOP.....TS= Terry Saxland???? ??? Nah! too convenient!
-
I know I went over a few of the points you made JC, I did this for the benefit of others reading this thread to be sure they understood what we were talking about.
I had been wondering if the 15Lb’s lighter than FIM statement was a typo or misquote. 15lb under stock weight makes more sense.
So what is the history of these supposed ‘works’ frames?
Did Bultaco supply any of these to their European riders or was it only the US riders that used them.
If only the US riders, then this makes me think that they were made in the US.
It would be odd for Bultaco to make lightweight frames and not give them to their GP riders as the GP’s would have been more important to them than the US races.
They did seem to have easy access to Cro-Mo in California in the 70’s.
Also looking at those frames it looks to me like the CMS engine cradles are the same as the works frames. The head gussets appear to be the same shape, the Bultaco frame that Stan posted has similar gussets but of a slightly different shape.
The filled in swingarm pivot gussets looks like the only difference between the works cradle and CMS.
This may have been an early CMS trait that they dropped in later frames, but that is just a hypothetical.
From people of have had contact with over the years I have been told that CMS were around in 72 and that there were earlier frames than the one I copied. Apparently the early CZ-CMS frames had the flattened end swingarms like the early CZ’s.
It’s easy to scoff at comments as being hearsay but the only reason that I know that Elvis Presley is dead is because I read it in the papers. Should I not believe these stories too ;D :D
-
I've been having a very quick squiz through my magazine collection this morning looking for any reference to CMS prior to 1974 as I know they were around in the early 70's but as it stands I haven't yet found any evidence. I've got over 1000 magazines, all prior to 1980 and I've only looked through about 10 so I've a ways to go yet. ;) I have found reference to Charley Cole being involved in 1970 so I'm closing in. I've also asked a few American friends if Charley is related to Jeff Cole from C&J....The jury's still out on that one.
I spoke to Ron Pomeroys wife earlier this morning and she told me that he was out on a job and to call back around 12.30pm (our time). I'll report back as soon after!
-
I just read the 2 Melling articles side by side. The bike tested was Malcolm Davis's UK championship-winning bike that was essentially a pre-prod'n Mk7 in Mk6 colours.
The later one in the book (Big Leap, 79) has about 5 paragraphs missing, that statement re the wt of JPs GP bike changed, & an added section at the end, where he asks Davis to review what he said 5yrs earlier. My guess is that when Davis did so, he corected Melling's earlier mis-information.
Here's the relevant page from CI, 74:
(http://api.ning.com/files/F7U-tGM1YIDWXkGcX4FpUf0EeyAHjDfzWmKBodjELNHNqTkm0ySzxJG-BKVvP33ZHnkl0xV2pfcbU9q8VabNKfb2AFFJercf/Mellingquote.jpg?width=349&height=480)
And zoomed in so you can read it more easily:
(http://api.ning.com/files/efkEp6nnqcYnXYWrdWt-Qeff9Zup247*QZPxR7gVf5f9sDwoGNA5UeiAs86cX0jtG1LX3qEZ*XR4wKhE*vRkGz*Vk4o7CmXm/Mellingquotezoomed.jpg?width=737&height=402)
It’s easy to scoff at comments as being hearsay but the only reason that I know that Elvis Presley is dead is because I read it in the papers
No, not "scoffing" Geoff. The only reason I believe JP won the spanish GP is that I read it in the mags. But I tho't we were trying to be fairly conclusive in solving this mystery, & evidence carries a whole lot more weight than claims/reports.
One of the reasons we believe the earth is not flat, apart from the scientific evidence reported, is we can watch a ship disappear behind the curvature of the earth as it sails out of the harbour. The evidence conclusively confirms the reports. (Apparently it took a lot of convincing back in the day!)
Its a bit like those who want to push the boundaries of whats legal in (say) pre75 VMX. Anybody can make a claim of what was around back then, but when someone turns up w a pic in a dated magazine, thats conclusive evidence. I tho't thats what we're after.
-
From Jan 75 Trail & Track:
(http://api.ning.com/files/zwm8G5vmLwttdubAsGdCXXNjj2xx02UtfUz4P*j79wWd*3Q-Q*LvL3VmYq0dPxwNqK6B0iQDdK7icO9y6oIARKEZ3-K3F3fW/CMSCZframeadTTjan75.jpg?width=737&height=484)
From, "Around the Shops" in Mar 75 T&T:
(http://api.ning.com/files/wdpBVpst2cZeLpNRjoTEDcsho7U74lY92TlDNrZC*zPtOenRwh2oj5EnAxdDkDVs3VaQ3T*MUuD*bHy9swpt2xqQvhp*A0LR/CMSCZframeTTmar75.jpg?width=737&height=496)
-
Begs the question were the 125's a different frame (maybe cro-mo)to the 250/325 ?
The 125s were said to have lighter guage tubing in the rear sub-frame.
VB 10001410 ENGINE AND FRAME.
Jerry, that may well be a late Mk6. (my engine # is 10000052) The MK6 125 pursang wasn't a big seller. I have seen Bul prod'n figures somewhere, but I don't think it was model by model, only total prod'n year by year. (74 & 75 were the biggest years by far IIRC)
Somewhere I've seen a circa 73 shot of Gary Bailey's &/or David Bailey's 250/125 pursang(s) which show it/them in MK6 livery but w Mk7 features like rear hub, telescos, chain-guide etc. I'm fairly sure it was a Goodyear ad, but where???
I have found reference to Charley Cole being involved in 1970
What was he doing then? ie in that reference.
-
It was Skip Kretz (not Krepps) who prepped JPs #12 74 TransAMA bike - out of Bay Area Bultaco. That West coast isn't it?
Perhaps he did the 73 GP bike too??
(Apologies for several posts in a row)
-
out of Bay Area Bultaco. That West coast isn't it?
Not sure, but don’t get the west coast Washington State (above California) confused with Washington DC which is east coast
-
Yep, silly me; I just checked that, but you beat me to it. Washougal/Spokane is on the western side (tho JP still went to NY to arrange the trip).
More of the dots are lining up.
There is a Terry G Saxland (age 79yrs) listed in Seattle, WA. Could be JPs sponsor.
-
I just had a great half hour conversation with Ron Pomeroy and it was like talking with Jim all over again. Like Jim he bounces from one subject to another in a haphazard way but is amazingly entertaining and informative. Unfortunately, Ron couldn't shed any further light on the subject, his take being that he thought that the bike had been a total stocker but that "he wouldn't be surprised if it was a CMS as we knew Charley".
He told me that there are only a couple of people left who would know the real answer. One was Jims French/Spanish mechanic, the other Arnie Beaman who took over after the Spanish GP. Ron passed along Arnie's email address and I've just sent him a rather lengthy email mapping out the evidence we've uncovered showing that the bike may have had an aftermarket frame and asking him some general questions about the bike. I've also asked if he may have any close up, static photos of the bike (to assist Jerry in his build).
All we can do now is to hope that Arnie can come up with a definitive answer.
-
Great work Firko. Thanks for that. Did you invite Ron over? Jerry
-
Great work Firko. Thanks for that. Did you invite Ron over? Jerry
As a matter of fact I did invite Ron but he told me that the GFC has made things financially very tight, making it pretty hard to justify the expense or time away from his business. He reckons Jim never shut up about what a great place Australia is and how well he was treated......We liked him too. ;D
-
He told me that there are only a couple of people left who would know the real answer. One was Jims French/Spanish mechanic, the other Arnie Beaman who took over after the Spanish GP.
All we can do now is to hope that Arnie can come up with a definitive answer.
According to numerous reports in subsequent years Rubio (sometimes spelt Rubion) Flores remained JPs mechanic for a long time after that GP. But Arnies name often came up too after a while. As did Skip Kretz in the US. It always seemed like JP had a couple of mechanics at any time (after the 1st GP)
If the bike was US-prepped, surely somebody in the US would know
-
Ron also gave me Rubios phone # but warned me that he speaks very little English. I'll take the Arnie route first. Ron told me that Jim shared mechanics with the other Works Bultaco supported entrants at the Spanish GP, presumably Rubio was one of them. He told me that Arnie became the main mechanic in time for the following GP.
Terry Saxland is still around but Ron couldn't find his #. He said he'd dig it out and pass it on when he does, or even better, he'd ask Terry if he knew anything regarding the frame used.
-
, Ron couldn't shed any further light on the subject, his take being that he thought that the bike had been a total stocker but that "he wouldn't be surprised if it was a CMS as we knew Charley".
When did they know him - before or after late72/early73? That could be significant.
-
When did they know him - before or after late72/early73? That could be significant.
I didn't ask....it was a passing comment.
-
Thinking laterally I just spoke to Kenny Zahrt (Bultaco factory rider)in the states. Very nice man and when asked about Jims frame had no hesitation in pronouncing it a pre production MK7 frame made of chrome moly and brazed (is that how you spell it ?) together using nickle silicone bronze. He went on to say all the factory riders used these frames and that he had visited the factory in Spain and seen them being put together. Very approachable tells me he rides once a year in a charity event. He knows about VMX mag but can never find anywhere to buy it. Told him about OZVMX and encouraged him to jump on board. Cheers Jerry
-
Good stuff jerry would be unreal to have "The Dart" on board a bully legend as well ;)
-
Yes, well done Jerry
Another of JP at Superbowl 73
(http://api.ning.com/files/PJcWyFSnJEx3uL1rutIVsAtOzhfoZeZauHnnLKSbJZjUN8szsXHOmcEf0Io9ilk5WLPdzJBNf-H8ya3614GktFhi8sIdXWXT/PomeroySuperbowl2MXANov73.jpg?width=454&height=600)
-
Good stuff Jerry, great detective work. Here's a couple of pic's of the Kenny the "Dart" Zahrt.
Stan.
#20 Kenny Zahrt. #23 Gaylon Mosier. #55 Luke Messer. #13 Bruce Baron.#46 Bill Rubly.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/KennyZhart2.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Pomeroy%20pics%20etc/KennyZhart.jpg)
-
Great work Jerry. One of the keys to successful research is to dig where others haven't dug before ;). Kenny's assertion that the frame was built in house at Bultaco when added to Ron Pomeroy’s belief that the frame was 'a stocker' puts a couple more nails in the 'American Made' theory. I haven't heard back from Arnie Beaman via email so I'll attempt to call him tomorrow morning. If I need to I may also give Rubio Flores a call if I can rope a young Chilean friend of the family to do my interviewing for me ‘en Espanol’.
I'm currently sick in bed with a killer tummy bug which has given me a bit of time to dig around in my books, looking for anything to do with the 1973 Bultaco team. In Frank Mellings 'The Big Leap' I found a number of references to Greeves, AJS and Bultaco works rider Malcolm Davis from Wales. It appears that he and Melling were mates, with Frank having written tests on a number of Davis' rides in the press over the years. In 1973 Davis was riding a factory supported Bultaco on the GP circuit, obviously alongside Pomeroy. On page 148 of the Big Leap Mellings discusses how the era of the 'works bike' was emerging by 1973, making it increasingly difficult to succeed on a production bike.......
"The chance of Malcolm Davis's Bultaco beating the Yamaha of Hakan Anderson and the Suzuki of Joel Robert in 1973 was next to nothing. Yet Davis was clearly a GP winner on ability and his bike was a fine racing motorcycle but chances of success in a World Championship round was negligible because the gap between the factory exotica and his tuned production bike was simply too great to bridge. Not even a good start, a favourable track and the right frame of mind could make up for bike that didn’t have long travel suspension or a lightweight frame".
Seeing that his team mate had won the first GP of the season on what appears to be an identical bike, sends me the message that Davis may have been a bit suspicious that Pomeroy’s bike was more special than his. If indeed, Davis was riding a stocker that couldn’t compete with the works exotica yet Pomeroys could, does send a message that Pomeroy’s bike was something special. Sure Pomeroy was an outstanding rider but Davis was also a champion with GP wins under his belt so he wasn’t a mid pack punter by any means.
Perhaps Melling assumption that Pomeroy’s bike had a ‘special American made Chro-Mo frame had come via Davis?
I think we’re getting closer to solving the mystery and right now the evidence points towards the frame being a factory built lightweight pre production Mk VII style unit.
The big question in my mind now is, Why did Jim make the American Made claim when even his brother denies the truth of the statement.
-
I'm currently sick in bed with a killer tummy bug which has given me a bit of time to dig around in my books…
Hey Firko, I hope that isn't a euphemism?
Seeing that his team mate had won the first GP of the season on what appears to be an identical bike, sends me the message that Davis may have been a bit suspicious that Pomeroy’s bike was more special than his.
To be honest, I think you are drawing a very long bow there. Spain was certainly Bimbos day - he could do no wrong - but to attempt to use that one day of dominance as proof of the difference between two team bikes is a bit thin.
I don't think Jim ever replicated those two dominant rides in Spain, not too dissimilar to Marty Moates at Carlsbad. Yes I realise Jim went onto record more moto wins, but the analogy of being 'his day' holds true.
…and great to hear that Kenny Zahrt is still going strong!!
VMX42
-
I found a number of references to Greeves, AJS and Bultaco works rider Malcolm Davis from Wales.
Malcolm was Gloucester born and bred. His brother Tony was a works BSA trials rider and his father Les was long time chairman of the ACU trials sub-committee. Malcolm was also a trials rider of some note and could, on any given day, challenge the likes of Rathmell and Lampkin for a win in the British trials championship.
Greeves? Not as far as I remember. Cotton certainly.
It appears that he and Melling were mates
I doubt that. Going on my fathers opinion of Melling. My dad and Malcolm were big mates with my father being Malcolms mechanic on the GP circuit for a year.
As an aside, the UK press played up the rivalry between Malcolm and Bryan Wade and they played up to the press even coming to (pretend) blows in the paddock at one British championship event. The press lapped it up. What the press didn't know was that Malcolm, Bryan, my dad and several others trained and drank together (and the pub where they drank is still there. I checked 2.5 years ago and was surprised to find the stereophonics were live billing).
*edit* I was wrong about Greeves. Difficult to argue with a piccie:
(http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/orr22.jpg)
-
I'm currently sick in bed with a killer tummy bug which has given me a bit of time to dig around in my books…
Hey Firko, I hope that isn't a euphemism
Errr..bad choice of words. Despite feeling like shit, I'm reasonably certain I'll survive. I picked up some sort of tummy thing at the weekends blues festival which, combined with passing two kidney stones since Monday, have left this big puppy a very sick and sorry individual. I've drank six litres of water so far today and I still feel dehydrated! I have a feeling that the worst has passed thank god.
Enough of me.....
To be honest, I think you are drawing a very long bow there.
Yeah, I realise that, I'm merely theorising, reading between Frank Mellings lines.
It appears that he and Melling were mates
I doubt that. Going on my fathers opinion of Melling
I based that on Franks continuous references to Davis in his writings. I didn't mean it in a bosom buddy sense, but more a sense of Frank admiring Malcolms work. He seems in awe of his talents and says so a number of times throughout his magazine articles and books. I also assumed the Welsh birthright without double checking...my blue there.
It'd be interesting to get Malcolms take on the frame situation...got any contact Tim?
-
Hi Firko,
You cannot take to your bed now,...the world awaits,.....toofastim, is right about about the davis family,they had a bike shop in the town,but both he and JP use the same practice track now....i cannot be of any help with factual info about JP but jc,,,yourself,,,and jerry are getting there its a difficult one all the same.......Try not to ignore the clues nearer home regarding the FLOOD family and the flying scot vic allen +CHENEY good luck guys,...excuse the lack of keyboard skills
-
It'd be interesting to get Malcolms take on the frame situation...got any contact Tim?
Malcolm was killed in a trial by a drink-driver in 1980 if memory serves. I've been trying to hunt down Ken Sedgley for years without any success. Les died about 15 yrs ago and no idea where Tony is these days. I do have Malcs ex-wifes number somewhere. The only other bloke who could shed light is Bryan Wade who I believe now lives in Thailand.
Malcolm was a pretty good player of the press (such as it was for MX in the early '70's) so I reckon that Malc might have been cultivating Melling. Alternatively Melling was/is name dropping. Hail fellow well met and all that..
Sh&t what's Mellings real name? Buggered if I can remember. I know that Melling is his nom-de-plume
*edit* what about Vic Allen?
-
and the pub where they drank is still there. I checked 2.5 years ago and was surprised to find the stereophonics were live billing
Funny really, that pub is not 500m from where Fred and Rosemary West lived. I used to walk past that house. Scary stuff.
It was said of Malcolm that if all the w/c rounds where held in the UK he would have been world champ.
-
It was said of Malcolm that if all the w/c rounds where held in the UK he would have been world champ.
Every rider loves their home tracks ;) :)
Thanks Ian Berry for the book ...your a gem 8)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/vmx247/Malcolmdavis.jpg)
-
Would anyone have the starting list for the now iconic 1973 Spanish 250cc GP. It would be interesting to chase down the other "factory" Bultaco riders to confirm what they were actually riding and perhaps comment on any differences between their bikes. Allison has made a good point that if JP had a "special" bike would that have not bred disharmony amongst the other Bultaco riders especially as he was the new kid on the block (in the GP sense) whilst they were established GP riders who presumably would have also benefited from a "special" bike. That's not for a moment to suggest that JP wasn't "special" That reputation was established during practice and the race but not before. Here we go again! Cheers Jerry PS How you feeling Firko, do you have the confidence to tear one off yet?
-
reading between Frank Mellings lines.
It appears that he and Melling were mates
It'd be interesting to get Malcolms take on the frame situation...got any contact Tim?
Malcolm's not easy to contact anymore-he's doing skids in heaven :) Hope you feeling better today Firko!
I believe you can contact Frank Melling on his bike show website http://www.thundersprint.com/
cheers west side
-
Would be interesting to see who else was on the startline as well , - joel , hakan, harry etc ?
-
I was going to give this thread a break as it seemed to be winding down a bit, but...
In Frank Mellings 'The Big Leap' I found a number of references to Greeves, AJS and Bultaco works rider Malcolm Davis from Wales. It appears that he and Melling were mates,
Melling says as much (p99):
"Davis was a good friend of mine & a man whom I respected both personally & as a rider"
Seeing that his team mate had won the first GP of the season on what appears to be an identical bike, sends me the message that Davis may have been a bit suspicious that Pomeroy’s bike was more special than his
He didn't have to be suspicious that it was more special than his. Just check out the rear hub, the guards & the shocks on JPs bike. That pre-prod'n Mk7 hub was uber-trick in early 73 especially compared to a std pursang rear hub of the day. According to Mellings test of Davis's 73 UK championship winning bike, Davis didn't get that hub till after the end of the UK season. Its obvious JPs bike was "more special" than the others. The question that raises is: why JP? (I think there are a few answers)
Perhaps Melling assumption that Pomeroy’s bike had a ‘special American made Chro-Mo frame had come via Davis?
The US-made bit may have been an assumption via Davis, but the cro-mo bit could well have come via JP's other UK team mate, Vic Allan. Remember this from Vic (from VMX#7, p67):
"I ended up doing the 250s (ie GP circuit in 73) on a standard production pursang w the barrel tuned by Tony Dowe, now director of racing at Arrows F1 team. When JP broke one of the lightweight cro-mo frames I was given it & had it welde up".
We seem to be going around in circles now, going over the same ground we've been over & perhaps forgetting whats been posted.
There is a consistency to the reports about a cro-mo frame from various sources that makes it hard to doubt it (in chronological order from closest to the event):
from JP via Dirt Bike I'view
from JP via CI I'view
from John Huetter, the US journo travelling w JP all season
from JPs GP team mate Vic Allan
from JPs US team mate Kenny Zart
Why did Jim make the American Made claim when even his brother denies the truth of the statement
Mark, its a bit of a quantum leap to that from this:
Unfortunately, Ron couldn't shed any further light on the subject, his take being that he thought that the bike had been a total stocker
The big question in my mind now is, Why did Jim make the American Made claim
I go back to this:
Were JPs claims (that it was US made) a case of trumped-up patriotic hubris about US expertise/involvement thats typical of the yanks?
Or this:
I would guess it was more likely to be an assumption or misunderstanding
I take you back to what JP himself was quoted as saying about it. He raises the patriotic bit himself:
About all it had was a cro-mo frame made in the states. Its not very good. Its made too light & it cracks everywhere. The Bul factory frame is better-handling cos it feels like its stronger & doesnt flex as much, but that day I was patriotic & I said, OK, I'll use everything American today
That last bit has always sounded so artificial to me!
right now the evidence points towards the frame being a factory built lightweight pre production Mk VII style unit.
Yes, for me, the various reports again point that way as the most likely scenario.
Another bit of evidence that points that way is that the bike Melling tested "just weeks after" he won the UK Championship was Davis' 73 bike & its clearly a pre-prod'n Mk7 Pursang (w a couple of exceptions) in Mk6 colours weighing "208lbs ready to race" . ie Davis campaigned a pre-prod'n MK7 w lightweight frame during the 73 season too, even if he got it a little later than JP did.
Hopefully I'll post a pic or 2 of that bike shortly (which shows the couple of exceptions)
-
I think this is an interesting study in History and Memory.
My daughter is currently studying for year 12 HSC and is dealing with this aspect as part of her history studies. They say that both are important to understanding but History is factual and Memory is emotional and subjective.
I'll continue to follow the thread with interest. The Truth is out there. ;)
8) :)
-
Its obvious JPs bike was "more special" than the others. The question that raises is: why?
Seems to me there's a few reasons why JP got the special stuff 1st, right from the start of the GP season:
He'd just come off a fairly successful TransAMA & MX des Nations
The US market was massively important to Bulto & therefore hugely influential (they exported around 70% of their entire prod'n to Nth America)
The US Bul riders were already using lightweight frames in the US
JP made the effort to do pre-season traing & racing in Belgium (where many other top contenders did too), where he won his 1st race in Europe (even if it was a 125 race)
He showed remarkable improvement there (cutting lap time from 2min 35sec to 2 min 7sec)
JPs tutor/mentor was Marcel Weirtz, the belgium Bul importer (& GP rider), thro where Bultacos GP effort seems to have been largely run at that time. Presumably Weirtz would have been fairly influential w the factory & reported JPs progress
I think by then Davis was a mid-pack GP runner, esp outside UK, & Vic Allan was at the beginning of his carreer (& wanted to ride the 500 class anyway on the 400 proto)
JP was 'larger than life' & may well have been a 'favourite'
Somebody had to get the trick parts first! (if there weren't enough to go around)
-
No luck getting through to Arnie.....I'll try again over the weekend.
I was going to give this thread a break as it seemed to be winding down a bit
You've got to be kidding ??? John....after page after page of supposition, we're finally getting close to the truth.
Why did Jim make the American Made claim when even his brother denies the truth of the statement
Mark, its a bit of a quantum leap to that from this:
Quote
Unfortunately, Ron couldn't shed any further light on the subject, his take being that he thought that the bike had been a total stocker
What's this quatum leap you speak of JC? I spoke to him and know damn well what he said. I was wondering out aloud as to why Jim would make such a statement yet his brother call it bullshit.
I have a nutty professor theory that I'll hoist up the flagpole........
We've previously discussed the poor quality steel used in Spanish manufacturing so I won't rehash the point ;). Because of that steel being inferior, would it not be a possibility that the Chrome-Moly tubing used to manufacture the brazed pre production Mk7 frame as described by Kenny Zarht had been imported from the USA? That would give some sort of credence to the American connection......Spanish made using American materials ;). .
-
Did not the spanish factories smuggle tubeing back into the country in there GP trucks?
I thought it was a common practice to have CM frames for a few made from the real stuff.
-
Mark, the quantum leap I refer to is in what you posted: in the 1st post you said Ron couldn't shed any light on the subject, & that his take was that he thought the bike was a stocker - rather indefinite to say the least - then in the later post you said he "denies" the US-made/cro-mo bit.
No offense but for me, thats a huge jump. (We can only go on what you post from that conversation.)
would it not be a possibility that the Chrome-Moly tubing used to manufacture the brazed pre production Mk7 frame as described by Kenny Zarht had been imported from the USA? That would give some sort of credence to the American connection......Spanish made using American materials
Yes, I don't think thats nutty at all (tho it doesn't account for JPs claims that he took a bike out of the crate in Spain). Its entirely possibly, tho I beleive under Franco you couldn't offically import any such thing, but there are other means of obtaining such quality tubing. (AS Slakewell said while I was typing)
I think it just as likely (& perhaps more so) that they would have used tubing smuggled back from UK. They had reportedly already been doing that for years for the factory trials riders.
-
Maybe a purpose built cro-mo frame built by cms to stocker spec at jp's request ? as vmx42 say's "someone will know" :) whether or not they divulge is another question :D
I think your nearly on the money firko, he just didnt trust the std frame and either took /sent a frame over(maybe CMS?)or the raw cro-mo material and the secret's still a bit of a secret ! :)
-
Here's Davis's 73 UK Championship winning bike:
(http://api.ning.com/files/2DIHbdk4GzkCQQc2wc-BrWWZ-zT9IoILAID2dpbqMBejHF9Ne6jmFCJYhotTlzB68uI9YF0ll0UQNa6paoHHEjQgm3uZ9Bw1/PursangDavis73UKchampCImar73.jpg?width=642&height=600)
"208lbs ready to race"
-
"The chance of Malcolm Davis's Bultaco beating the Yamaha of Hakan Anderson and the Suzuki of Joel Robert in 1973 was next to nothing. Yet ... his bike was a fine racing motorcycle but chances of success in a World Championship round was negligible because the gap between the factory exotica and his tuned production bike was simply too great to bridge
Melling also says (after heaping praise on the pursang):
"The Bultaco was not competitive at GP level, despite JPs fine, if somewhat unexpected, win in the Spanish GP & the factory, having a good machine in the Mk7, was reluctant to let it go; w the result that they were slow to build the bikes w long travel rear suspension."
(I believe he means the GP bikes, as the MK8 pursang was 1 of the 1st prod'n bikes w LTR)
Its a bit off the topic, but FWIW, & as much as it pains this great-fan-of-Pursangs-since-71 to admit it, I have to agree he's dead right there. As good a bike as the pursang was for the weekend racer all the way to national level, it was only really GP-competitive for 2 GPs at the start of 73. Once Andersson turned up w the cantilver at the 3rd GP it was all over for Bul at GP level & I think JPs results show it (I'll list them shortly).
Other factories were much quicker responding, most notably Maico (who finished 2nd that year).
I still find it incredulous that in the 8th GP, months later (there was a 6wk gap mid-season), JP was still using short travel suspension & even when they did finally modify the bike, it was very conservative for years to come - partly cos JP always said he preferred a lower bike for better cornering, but perhaps also cos of the dated engine design w the sprocket so far from the s'arm pivot.
By 75, this was the works Kaw, Suz & Yam:
(Look at that Suz!)
(http://api.ning.com/files/ruNcyD-5gDvtRuKLzUwO7MyxKFDvgDtQhvmKaad9GJpudpt7lQR*IvA3Lbg2ZtlNUP-iLOFT53G7*kap0RHDPtqycDXMRxe2/GP75KawSuz250s.jpg?width=450&height=600)
And this was JPs 75 bike:
(http://api.ning.com/files/IkfVra8i2VhtHkqSWeTiE7m3fF5azfx0I4JzNo-AX8VYo*8yIjQVOWdDatJl*559AWb8R34jX4ZFetvXzYmrFhNMltcxe55F/Pomeroy75GPbikeTT875.jpg?width=737&height=377)
Which wasn't much diff to his 74 bike:
(http://api.ning.com/files/7Hmh5sRvHIvk9FygjGpexbKVbDUpP8BMqH9HYFdbkxScuT9FYxNWfuB9d8rVmud2Zek-ML1XxysSPmm7m*00R2UINSY0kiTT/Pomeroy74GP250bikePopCycle.jpg?width=737&height=486)
which wasn't much diff to.... (look at his 73 bike)
JPs points in 73 moto/moto for ea GP were:
15/8, 6/6, 0/4, 5,0, 0/6, 0/6, 0/0, 10/1, 3/0, 1/0, 0/0
It was 76 before he got half-decent travel (& finished 4th on the circuit) & even then it was behind the others.
-
I think this is an interesting study in History and Memory.
"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it": WS Chrurchill (who recieved the Nobel prize for literature for his "History of the English speaking peoples".
-
I was going to give this thread a break as it seemed to be winding down a bit
You've got to be kidding ??? John....
Sometimes I think I'm having too much to say here
-
Mark, the quantum leap I refer to is in what you posted: in the 1st post you said Ron couldn't shed any light on the subject, & that his take was that he thought the bike was a stocker - rather indefinite to say the least - then in the later post you said he "denies" the US-made/cro-mo bit.
Interpret it any way you choose John, I think most others understood what I was saying. ::)
-
I think we just wish to think what is important to us is very important to the people it happened to. Maybe just maybe the win and bike just wasn’t that important to Jim. Maybe after 30 years of stories and beer and bullshit things became blurred in his mind so the story changed.
-
The "American frame" interview with Pomeroy was made in 1973 or 1974 Mick.
-
Sometimes I think I'm having too much to say here
Never :)
Maybe after 30 years of stories and beer and bullshit things became blurred in his mind so the story changed.
They all where very busy racing times, with so many moto placings and podium positions.Only perhaps half of it was documented.
I dont know how they remember any on it,but emotionally.
cheers A
-
Mark, the quantum leap I refer to is in what you posted: in the 1st post you said Ron couldn't shed any light on the subject, & that his take was that he thought the bike was a stocker - rather indefinite to say the least - then in the later post you said he "denies" the US-made/cro-mo bit.
Interpret it any way you choose John, I think most others understood what I was saying. ::)
Unfortunately, Ron couldn't shed any further light on the subject
Its a bit hard to take that any other way. ??? I'm not trying to be smart or difficult, nor playing at semantics. I understood you to mean that Ron couldn't add anything to the debate.
-
Jeez John.....one last time...Ron said it was a stock frame. I wrote that in the first post and I figured it was pretty easy to understand. He couldn't shed any further light on what he'd told me (other than it being a stock frame). Stop being so pedantic, and let it go. Getting tangled up on wording is a waste of time and your considerable talent. ;D. I'm going to the shed for some spanner action on my own chro-mo frame ;).
-
Careful, yes; pedantic, no. :) I take care to read every post like the respondant meant what he said & said what he meant. Anyway, 'nuff said on that.
I know who I believe out of what JP said & what Ron P said. :)
Here's another bit of useful info that vindicates the decision to give JP the trick bike over his team mates (Apart from the Spanish victory). Not one other 250 Bul rider scored a single point the whole season!
-
Just build the fricken thing will ya Jerry.....it's turning into a Suzuki footpeg saga.... ;D....hope your feeling better Mark...with a K!!! ;D
-
Just build the fricken thing will ya Jerry.....it's turning into a Suzuki footpeg saga.... ;D....hope your feeling better Mark...with a K!!! ;D
:D
yes and we want update shots as you progress.
-
Hi Al didn't I open a jar of worms. Promise to post some photo's when my son's girlfriend shows me how!
-
Just build the fricken thing will ya Jerry.....it's turning into a Suzuki footpeg saga.... ;D....hope your feeling better Mark...with a K!!! ;D
[
/quote]Good idea that Jerry....its riding them thats important.....get on with it
-
Well done Jerry for opening up a great debate. Yourself, JC, Firko, Husibul, etc, etc have added some very interesting aspects to the debate and I hope we find out more conclusive evidence in the future about JP's frame but as it stands I think it was more than likely a pre production MK7 frame. I think for a small Euro factory, Bultaco did an amazing job to achieve what they did on the world stage against the then arriving powerhouses of the Japanese and other Euro manufacturers. I would like to list the Australian acheivements of the Bulatco marque on Australian scramble/motocross scene from 1971 to 1975 but I fear there is not enough capacity on this forum ;D No really I am biased but this little Spanish motorcycle company did very well compared to the tsunamy of manufacturers ready to engulf them in the later 70's.
Great debate Jerry, cheers.
Stan.
-
Just build the fricken thing will ya Jerry.....it's turning into a Suzuki footpeg saga.... ;D....hope your feeling better Mark...with a K!!! ;D
:D
yes and we want update shots as you progress.
Hi Al didn't I open a jar of worms. Promise to post some photo's when my son's girlfriend shows me how!
Alterative motive...he just wants to see more big bores ripping up the paddocks ;) ;D ;D
cheers A
-
Here's a pic from CDB #15 of JP at the 7th GP in France, still w 4" travel:
(http://api.ning.com/files/glf9RY2v0o*qwGe1hHb533gANlqbpAm3mVDh0DQQ5E6OX9J0bnLA0iIw-hfM*t1ewkhbTEALoconOjc1Z3rKMqXnlW*YDtYe/PomeroyFrenchGP73CDB15.jpg?width=737&height=498)
Melling wrote again in 2000 (VMX#7 p 67): "Bultaco were slow in reacting to the long travel suspension revolution"
And an interesting quote from Vic Allan from same mag:
"The best 250 Bultaco I ever rode was one that the legendary Aussie tuner Bert Flood prepared for me to ride when I was competing over there, & it was very fast. In fact the first time I tried it... the extra power shot me over the back & onto the ground."
-
Great photo John confirms rear brake stay and holeless rear sprocket as well as "Bultaco" decal. Not sure but the seat seems to have grown in length. Thanks Jerry
-
Not sure but the seat seems to have grown in length. Thanks Jerry
Yes Jerry. Same as on the Superbowl 2 bike & USGP bike. Check out the pics several pages back.
-
You not going to believe this but.........yes there's more to this saga! If you have nothing better to do in your life go to HUGHES BULTACO website. In there you will find a video called "How we got started" which details the Hugh Weaver story (quite interesting I might add) Anyway about 3/4 of the way through the tale up pops JP with a little gem. If it's true we have found the frame used in the 1973 GP and JC has already posted a photo of it! Off you go JC, Firko. I'm loving this Jerry
-
You not going to believe this but.........
It really is a small world... ;D
quote:you will never believe last night we went down to Fremantle harbour to watch the QM2 sail out and got talking to a couple of poms who were flying back today, and small world we couldn't believe it as the conversation got around to "What do you do in your spare time" reply being "motocross".......their reply "Dancing" and guess what "Dancing with a chap called Tony Davis who was and is well into motobikes and he was the original Malcolm Davis brother. :o :o
It goes to show you should always have a chat, with strangers ;D
cheers A
-
So let me get this right.......you were dancing with Malcom Davis's brother? It sure is a funny world! Cheers Jerry
-
You not going to believe this but.........yes there's more to this saga! If you have nothing better to do in your life go to HUGHES BULTACO website. In there you will find a video called "How we got started" which details the Hugh Weaver story (quite interesting I might add) Anyway about 3/4 of the way through the tale up pops JP with a little gem. If it's true we have found the frame used in the 1973 GP and JC has already posted a photo of it! Off you go JC, Firko. I'm loving this Jerry
Well Jerry,
I reckon a phone call to Hugh to get the low down might finally solve this mystery. You never know the frame might still be there… and who knows it might even be for sale at the right price?
Then Jerry can get on with building the bike and we can get on with our lives… :D
VMX42
-
And to think I was just chasing a few photo's and a little bit of info....... Good news build has started. Bike stripped to pieces, front hub and fork tubes Hydroblasted. Forks off to be Hard chromed.Geoff Morris supplying DC Plastic opaque guards and hopefully exhaust if I can drag him off the forum. Peter Schoene has a barrel and front mudguard bracket among other bits and pieces. Looking for a 21"shouldeless Akront front rim and a MK7 rear hub. Got some NOS bars from Don Newell. Girl at works husband supplied some NOS Amal levers. Also looking for a 21" Barum tyre. Photo's soon...maybe Cheers Jerry
-
So let me get this right.......you were dancing with Malcom Davis's brother? It sure is a funny world! Cheers Jerry
I wish Jerry,then I'd have the low down on this Bultaco frame and all its measurements your after ;D
You know when its rebuilt you'll be famous ..then you'll have a story to tell. :P 8)
cheers A
-
You not going to believe this but.........yes there's more to this saga! If you have nothing better to do in your life go to HUGHES BULTACO website. In there you will find a video called "How we got started" which details the Hugh Weaver story (quite interesting I might add) Anyway about 3/4 of the way through the tale up pops JP with a little gem. If it's true we have found the frame used in the 1973 GP and JC has already posted a photo of it! Off you go JC, Firko. I'm loving this Jerry
http://www.bultaco.com/ ;)
-
And to think I was just chasing a few photo's and a little bit of info....... Good news build has started. Bike stripped to pieces, front hub and fork tubes Hydroblasted. Forks off to be Hard chromed.Geoff Morris supplying DC Plastic opaque guards and hopefully exhaust if I can drag him off the forum. Peter Schoene has a barrel and front mudguard bracket among other bits and pieces. Looking for a 21"shouldeless Akront front rim and a MK7 rear hub. Got some NOS bars from Don Newell. Girl at works husband supplied some NOS Amal levers. Also looking for a 21" Barum tyre. Photo's soon...maybe Cheers Jerry
But Jerry, the frame. Come on Jerry you know you want it!! Aren't you just the tiniest bit interested to see if it is for sale?
Come on, you know you want to…
-
You not going to believe this but.........yes there's more to this saga! If you have nothing better to do in your life go to HUGHES BULTACO website. In there you will find a video called "How we got started" which details the Hugh Weaver story (quite interesting I might add) Anyway about 3/4 of the way through the tale up pops JP with a little gem.
http://www.bultaco.com/ ;)
wooohhooooo..The mother load :o --its all about parts jerry and now so many years later :P :P ;D
So who does the seat embossing for Hugh Weaver in Oz ??
cheers A
-
So who does the seat embossing for Hugh Weaver in Oz ??
cheers A
Eldorado Motor Cycle Seat Restoration S.A.? He does good work - museum quality ;).
-
Handy to know thanks
-
quote:you will never believe last night we went down to Fremantle harbour to watch the QM2 sail out and got talking to a couple of poms who were flying back today, and small world we couldn't believe it as the conversation got around to "What do you do in your spare time" reply being "motocross".......their reply "Dancing" and guess what "Dancing with a chap called Tony Davis who was and is well into motobikes and he was the original Malcolm Davis brother. :o :o
Wow! I'd love to catch up with him.
-
Would anyone have the starting list for the now iconic 1973 Spanish 250cc GP.
Thought I'd have a go and emailed a few Bultaco website,and got a reply.
He's maybe on here as a member already. 8)
The Sprite thread was getting a bit quiet - more the merry on Bultaco ;D
quote:
I don’t have any entry list for the 1973 Spanish GP. I would guess there should have been more Bultaco riders than just Jim as he was an unknown up to that point. Bultaco gave him a bike to ride. He told us that it was bone stock and he uncrated it himself. I would imagine Bultaco had factory supported riders that were running the race as well. They were probably trying to get as many as possible out there to win their home GP.
-
You not going to believe this but.........yes there's more to this saga! If you have nothing better to do in your life go to HUGHES BULTACO website. In there you will find a video called "How we got started" which details the Hugh Weaver story (quite interesting I might add) Anyway about 3/4 of the way through the tale up pops JP with a little gem. If it's true we have found the frame used in the 1973 GP and JC has already posted a photo of it! Off you go JC, Firko. I'm loving this Jerry
Hec Jerry, you don't need us! Well done again. The serial # on that frame certainly fits right in w the other factory prototype 400 Buls of late 72/early 73.
I've looked looong & hard many times over the last couple of weeks at the rear frame loop on JPs bike in the pic of the start of the Spanish GP on p26 of VMX3. It doesn't look like a std pursang rear loop. It looks longer w a sharper upward bend, just like the works frame # B1000248 that I posted. To some degree you can compare it to the other Pursangs in the pic (#18, 23, 24 &39) but the detail in that pic is too indistinct to be conclusive.
Interesting that JP says in that clip that Hugh has 2 frames there. I'm sure I've seen a pic of 2-3 frames at Hughs, said to be JPs factory frames (I think one was a bit bent or something) but I can't find it anywhere.
And here's another quote that could be relevant (from VMX #16, p12). It concerns the frame of one of JPs 76 GP bikes, but the same could well be true of the 73 frame:
"According ton 'El Rubio', the mat'l they used was aircraft tubing & was obtained thro a friend who worked at the Belgian airline Sabena... The finish & welding are of much better quality than usual cos they wer made in Bultaco's 'special series' department by Mr Cespedes, the head of the sheet metal workshop."
-
Jerry, at the risk of losing GMC some business, did you know Hughs sell a Pomeroy pipe, built to specs JP used. I've ridden an M120 w such a pipe & it was a jet. It got the holeshot at the Cheeribah Nats in 2000 (not w me on board). But it doesn't have 3-stage/tapered header like GMC's, so one wonders what his pipes would do! (ie how much quicker??)
-
But it doesn't have tapered header like GMC's, so one wonders what his pipes would do! (ie how much quicker??)
I believe tapered headers aren't legal for AHRMA's equivalent to pre '75. The Pomeroy would be just what Jerry needs...I seem to recall Circle F or one of the other American pipemakers produce a Pomeroy pipe as well. If only I could remember where I saw it.
-
Thanks guys already talking to Geoff Morris about making sure the pipe "looks right" Going up to see him in a couple of weeks. He's mentioned maybe modifying the frame with the extra swing arm pivot plate. Having a think about that at the moment. JC obviously saw the video. What about you Firko? Jerry
-
Jerry, at the risk of losing GMC some business, did you know Hughs sell a Pomeroy pipe, built to specs JP used. I've ridden an M120 w such a pipe & it was a jet. It got the holeshot at the Cheeribah Nats in 2000 (not w me on board). But it doesn't have 3-stage/tapered header like GMC's, so one wonders what his pipes would do! (ie how much quicker??)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Broadford%20Nats%20%202010/VMX-Nats-2010--Ray-holeshot-202.jpg)
Ray Smith (40) used a GMC pipe to keep the kids honest in the 250 class at Broadford last year.
Although, now that I think about it, Ray does share some resemblance to Kenny Zahrt.
Is that how Jerry was able to ring Kenny? The phone call didn’t leave Vic.
But yes, for Jerry to do this replica he won’t want one of my normal spec chambers, and we have discussed this already.
Jerry, if the Hughes pipe looks right for you then go for it.
Can’t watch that video myself until next month, this months download quota is well gone.
-
The Hughs pipe I've seen is diff to the 73 pipe in the header. Instead of one large radius bend it has two smaller radius bends, like the 360 pipe
-
My first go at posting a photo (thanks to Liz). :)
(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee446/jeremyhealy/IMG_1661.jpg)
-
Great stuff Liz and Jerry,busy times. 8)
Dont forget me, if you ever want to sell your air box setup ;D
cheers A
-
(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee446/jeremyhealy/IMG_1661.jpg)
lots of shed time there Jerry, how much did you get it for? looking forward to your progress.
-
Jerry, have I missed something? Thats an earlier 48/68M frame, wheels, tank & pipe. Mk3/4 not Mk6.
-
Fear not fellow posters it is indeed my MK3 before restoration. Am now working on the MK6. Sorry for confusion. Jerry
-
Fear not fellow posters it is indeed my MK3 before restoration. Am now working on the MK6. Sorry for confusion. Jerry
post up a comparison photo of the boaty Jerry, it came a loooong...... way from purchase.
-
I'm trying Hoony......... I'm unsupervised at the moment, anything could happen!
-
email it to me and i can do it if you like.
hoony AT bigpond DOT net DOT au ( replace as required)
-
After!
(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee446/jeremyhealy/Bultaco%20mk3/iphonepics177.jpg)
-
Very nice Jerry, just wondered where the brown stuff came from on your jersey ;D :D
Stan.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Jerrys%20Bully/JerrysBully3.jpg)
-
Here's another one!(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee446/jeremyhealy/Bultaco%20mk3/iphonepics126.jpg)
-
I bumped into a bloke eating a Mars bar! Having said that Stan did you get a chance to look for the MK7 hub?
-
I bumped into a bloke eating a Mars bar! Having said that Stan did you get a chance to look for the MK7 hub?
No sorry Jerry, I will try and go through our Bully stuff tomorrow.
Stan.
-
Jerry, found this Mk5 125 on the Swapmeet site, thought the pic's may be handy for reference.
Stan.
http://www.vintagemx.us/cgi-bin/largephoto.cgi?C=4yHQV9pNdpwB6fjp
-
Very handy Stan. It all goes into the data bank. When your going thru. your Bulty stuff keep an eye out for a head, front mudguard bracket, 21" shoulderless Akront rim and aluminium rear brake stay. Thanks Jerry
-
Hi Jerry,
Well done on the resto,...a fine example,....did you find the carburation clean and crisp all through with the amal on
-
Thanks Gordon lot of work but I'm happy with the final result. As for the Amal,reasonably happy. Much better when jetted correctly of course but still doesn't like to idle and can be difficult to start despite being fitted with CDI ignition. Probably put a Mikuni at some stage for convenience. Amal can go on the "Pomeroy" bike. Cheers Jerry
-
After!
(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee446/jeremyhealy/Bultaco%20mk3/iphonepics177.jpg)
fark!!! what a beautiful piece of work, well done.
I've been following this thread just because it's interesting, I don't know anything at all about the Pomeroy bike in question, just find the history fascinating. Well done to all.
and once again, fark! that is a nice bike Jerry ;D
-
Thanks Mainline (maybe a bit too shiny!) I've been riding her in the odd race between work and injury and she's changed a bit. Taller seat, Renthal bars, Yamaha foot pegs (standard ones lethal) side number plates retired (due to value) and replaced with plastic ovals. Also replaced front guard for 2 reasons 1) Prone to breaking due to me crashing and 2) I cant stand the look of it! Cheers Jerry
-
Hey jerry great job ! it's always good to see an old iron on the edge come back to something as cool as that ;)without putting you on the spot to much what's your take on the peformance of it both power and handling ?cheers
-
Thanks Huski. Bike has Peter Schoene motor. Nice flexible spread of power with a bit up top.My son has a Yamaha WR250 and there's nothing between them in a straight line. First time I rode it "handling" awful. No brakes, tyres too hard, rear shocks way too hard me trying too hard and to be honest I was pretty dissapointed. However next time round correct tyre pressures,taller seat,Yamaha foot pegs (stolen from my son's bike!) modern bars, softer rear shocks and lighter fork oil in conjunction with YSS fork valves made all the difference. Brakes still average at best. My riding skill still very average at best. Still to come a Mikuni, improved air box, Titanium frame and carbon fibre guards! Cheers Jerry
-
Nice bike Jerry, ol' Donny Newell was at the track yesterday (sign on/practice for BMCC), he must be coming up 120 years old now....still getting around the track.....maybe a sign of things to come for you?....there was a couple of nice Bullies there.....have you got the Bultaco books that Donny sells?.....he has a sqillion parts for them in his shed.....is it going to be ready for CD8?....nothing like a bit of pressure to get things done on time ;D....if it is, can I have a ride? ;D
-
Thanks John your more than welcome to ride it providing you wear the Martini shirt! I'm nearly half of Don's age but I dont think I will make the big 120. As for CD 8 I might make it but sadly the bike wont be coming. Cheers Jerry PS I think I probably have the book you mentioned "Classic Bultaco"
-
I'm pretty sure he has 3 or 4 books....I have one in my hands now....Historia de la Pursang.....The Story. It's in espaniol and englesh....lots and lots of photo's and a fair bit on "bambi". It also has the spec's on every model....modelo.....distancia entre ejes....altura libre....peso en vacio....delantero....trasero....pinon de salida.....corona.....cilindrada....diametro....carrera.....compresion.....potencia maxCV.....marchas.....marca.....tipo.....O difusor.....marca......recorrido. You'll have to buy the book to get the answers... ;D....corona is not beer!...it's rear sprocket.....hope I've helped. ;D
-
Very Nice Jerry. Is that a GMC pipe?
Mk3 Amal would have only been 32mm; Mk6 was 36mm Amal, IIRC. I'm sure JP would have used a 36mm.
-
Thanks DC I dont have that one. Will ring Don today,maybe order one with the lot! Cheers Jerry
-
JC yeah it's a 32mm. Your going to laugh but I've never heard of an IIRC. Would you mind educating me on that one? Jerry PS Pipe is indeed one of Geoffs finest. Managed to dent it 2nd time out!
-
IIRC = If I recall correctly. Its SMS-speak
I have pipe specs for JPs pipe from Hughs if you/GMC want them
-
IIRC carby's no wonder I'd never heard of them!!!! IYDM (IF YOU DONT MIND!) please feel free to send the JP pipe specs. I appreciate it. CJ (Cheers Jerry)
-
IIRC = If I recall correctly. Its SMS-speak
Don't worry Jerry, I can't keep up with these "kids" and their abbreviated talk either
-
I only know a couple of them - fairly common ones that I picked up on here & looked up wikepedia. I'm a 70s relic too. Don't even own a mobile
Jerry, did you weigh yr frame? If so, what weight?
-
I though it musta been an offshoot of the old IRC/bridgestone tyre mob :-\
-
Not yet John. Later this week hopefully. I've just got a new mobile. You can download applications. I was mucking around at work and managed to download Ikamasutra. Now every time it rings I get position of the month together with music from a dodgy sitar. Apparently you can buy an IIRC carby in the states! Cheers Jerry
-
Jerry, I'm not sure if it relates to what youre chasing, but I bought a pipe to suit my Mk7 off Donny Newell years ago and I think he said it was a Circle F. It comes in two pieces, it has the short 90 degree exhaust header section, which slips into another 90 degree bend beginning of the rest of the pipe. Havent got to use it yet, but word is they were a little topend pipey.
Mike
-
Another book Jerry......Bultaco, Todo un mito (a real myth)....englesh and espanol.
-
And another: Classic Bultaco Motocross Motorcycles in colour. Well worth it!
Here's the engine/bike Bulto should have kept developing in 73:
(http://api.ning.com/files/X4vgJtRxcFgAWXTVkGuQkjdXfcnh-f5cIu6BWi7xorbie5dymuKNvuurs8EwhgMwmCARPvhbTzbWr-mQAXecut1YXJVdW-VL/Bultaco_Pursang_400_prototype.jpg?width=595&height=375)
400cc, gear primary drive, primary kickstarting, 48hp detuned to 42-43hp at riders request.
Uk riders Vic Allan & Malcolm Davis loved it but JP (& euro riders apparently) hated it, so it wasn't developed. Vic Allan won a preseason 500 International on it in 73 w all the guns competing.
-
JC and Stan. Just weighed the frame 16 kg. Sadly she's no MK7. Going back to the garage now to end it all! Jerry
-
Dont do it jerry!!! ill take it off your hands i need a frame for my astro project :D
-
One of these popped up on evil bay recently. It may even have been in Aus.
And another: Classic Bultaco Motocross Motorcycles in colour. Well worth it!
Here's the engine/bike Bulto should have kept developing in 73:
(http://api.ning.com/files/X4vgJtRxcFgAWXTVkGuQkjdXfcnh-f5cIu6BWi7xorbie5dymuKNvuurs8EwhgMwmCARPvhbTzbWr-mQAXecut1YXJVdW-VL/Bultaco_Pursang_400_prototype.jpg?width=595&height=375)
400cc, gear primary drive, primary kickstarting, 48hp detuned to 42-43hp at riders request.
Uk riders Vic Allan & Malcolm Davis loved it but JP (& euro riders apparently) hated it, so it wasn't developed. Vic Allan won a preseason 500 International on it in 73 w all the guns competing.
-
JC and Stan. Just weighed the frame 16 kg. Sadly she's no MK7. Going back to the garage now to end it all! Jerry
Give Hugh a call… you just never know [unless you don't ask]. ;)
-
JC and Stan. Just weighed the frame 16 kg. Sadly she's no MK7. Going back to the garage now to end it all! Jerry
Jerry, does that 16kg include the swingarm? (I hope so!)
-
Includes swingarm, bushes, foot pegs, headstem bearing cups, rear engine mount and pivot axle. Also paint, rust, dust and a bit of rag. By the way John what brand and shade of silver do you paint your bikes? Cheers Jerry
-
Jerry, there's a couple of options for the silver frame:
Ford Silver fox or Ford silver grey
For the red:
Ford sunburst red or Holden Magma
For the green # plates:
Toyota bright green
-
Jerry, I know it's a Mk7 ad but what the heck it's got Jim Pomeroy written on it :D :D
Regards Stan.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Old%20Advertisements/BertFloodAdFeb1974.jpg)
-
Nice Stanley! There was a guy I used to race against called Danny Keogh from Mitcham. His elder brother Bernard bought that bike from the Floods after it's race career. By then it of course had the laid forward shocks. He didn't seem to care for it though. The last I saw of it was living rough in a wood shed in his backyard. I haven't spoken to Danny for years........wonder what happened to it? Jerry PS Any luck with any Bulty bits?
-
Nice Stanley! There was a guy I used to race against called Danny Keogh from Mitcham. His elder brother Bernard bought that bike from the Floods after it's race career. By then it of course had the laid forward shocks. He didn't seem to care for it though. The last I saw of it was living rough in a wood shed in his backyard. I haven't spoken to Danny for years........wonder what happened to it? Jerry PS Any luck with any Bulty bits?
No I'm sorry Jerry we can't help you with the bits you need. I don't have any mk7 rear brake stay's left at all which is dissapointing as I will need one soon when I put my 360 back to right side gearshift. We do have a hub but it is newly painted and laced up in a new rim with new staino spokes. It's the only one so I will have to use it myself also.
I don't think that bike in the ad was Gary's as he had his shocks moved up the frame on his mk7's and laid down on his mk8's from new. Thats how they set mine up also before I picked my 125 and 250 up in 74 and 250 and 360 in 75.
I can't beleive you haven't used those detective powers to find out if your mates brother still has the mk7/mk8 250 in his wood shed. If you don't want it let me know ;).
Regards Stan.
-
Thanks for looking anyway Stan. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have a memory of Gary riding the MK7 for the first time at Xmas Hills and I'm sure the rear shocks were in the standard position. I remember how quiet and smooth (and fast!) the bike was. Clearly benefiting from Gary's riding!
-
Thanks for looking anyway Stan. Correct me if I'm wrong but I have a memory of Gary riding the MK7 for the first time at Xmas Hills and I'm sure the rear shocks were in the standard position. I remember how quiet and smooth (and fast!) the bike was. Clearly benefiting from Gary's riding!
Jerry, here are a few clippings of meetings that the Pomeroy Replica's were raced before the 74 Grand National.
Pakenham March 3rd 1974
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Mk7%20Bultaco%20ist%20year%20of%20comp/Istmk7s001.jpg)
Monza Park March 17th 1974
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Mk7%20Bultaco%20ist%20year%20of%20comp/Istmk7s002.jpg)
Echuca April 14th 1974
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Mk7%20Bultaco%20ist%20year%20of%20comp/Istmk7s003.jpg)
The Laurie Boulter at Atujara Park in SA April 25th 1974
!st Trevor Flood (ist outing for a YZ Cantilever in Australia)
2nd Gary Flood
3rd Steve Cramer
I spent the day at the local hospital after crashing in morning practice.
Keyneton SA April 28th 1974
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Mk7%20Bultaco%20ist%20year%20of%20comp/Istmk7s004.jpg)
Christmas Hills May 5th 1974 Grand National
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Mk7%20Bultaco%20ist%20year%20of%20comp/Istmk7s007.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af39/gf079/Mk7%20Bultaco%20ist%20year%20of%20comp/Istmk7s005.jpg)
-
Sorry its a bit late, but here are some Jim Pomeroy pics and details from the 73 GP season.
They have been scanned from a feature in Cycle Guide (Jan '74)
I havent seen these posted anywhere else.
Also I don't think anyone has noted that the front brake/hub is the lightweight Alloy one (Mk7) not the steel one, as standard on the Mk6.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/th_JimPomeroy1973pic333.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/?action=view¤t=JimPomeroy1973pic333.jpg)(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/th_JimPomeroy1973pic450l.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/?action=view¤t=JimPomeroy1973pic450l.jpg)(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/th_JPJoel.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/?action=view¤t=JPJoel.jpg)(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/th_FLAG.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/?action=view¤t=FLAG.jpg)(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/th_flagnotes.jpg) (http://s306.photobucket.com/albums/nn251/susanjones/OZVMX%20POSTS/?action=view¤t=flagnotes.jpg)
cheers, DJ
-
Nice one DJ exactly what I've been looking for. Your correct about the front brake. The bike as best as we can establish was a MK6 hot rodded with MK7 bits and pieces that became available on the MK7 when it was released a little later down the track. It's all in the timing, particuarly back then! Is there any chance you can expand those pictures? Cheers Jerry
-
Try clickin on each picture,it opens up a bigger shot .
-
Geezus Jerry, I thought you must have finished it......dont tell me Geoff is holding you up on a thingamejig.....I've been waiting for a pipe for 3 days now ??? ;D
-
Blowing up from low res. scans don't usually come out very good but you can just make out the swingarm gusset on the far side of Jims bike.
That just about blows the CMS claim out of the water.
Unless of course they made their early frames with the single plate gussets like the originals.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/JimPomeroy1973pic450l.jpg)
Geezus Jerry, I thought you must have finished it......dont tell me Geoff is holding you up on a thingamejig.....I've been waiting for a pipe for 3 days now ??? ;D
You'll be waiting 3 months now ya cheeky bugger
-
Thanks KB. See you tomorrow Geoff. Dont forget my stuff. Cheers Jerry PS Good to see us Mexicans working together despite vile comments from up north.
-
;D ;D ;D ;D
-
The number 5 bike was used at the Austrian GP.
I'm pretty sure that after the "surprise win" at the Spanish, he would definately be riding a "Stock" factory Bultaco.
DJ
-
The number 5 bike was used at the Austrian GP.
I'm pretty sure that after the "surprise win" at the Spanish, he would definately be riding a "Stock" factory Bultaco.
DJ
Ah, I should have read more of the story.
So it’s still not totally clear then one way or the other.
-
Blowing up from low res. scans don't usually come out very good but you can just make out the swingarm gusset on the far side of Jims bike.
That just about blows the CMS claim out of the water.
Unless of course they made their early frames with the single plate gussets like the originals.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/JimPomeroy1973pic450l.jpg)
Geezus Jerry, I thought you must have finished it......dont tell me Geoff is holding you up on a thingamejig.....I've been waiting for a pipe for 3 days now ??? ;D
You'll be waiting 3 months now ya cheeky bugger
I can't believe this much effort was spent to find out what I said was true, Pomeroy + CMS = B.S..
-
Jerry Haas is the guy that knows what Pomeroy used for the Spanish GP, find him (Hugh Weaver stays in contact with him) and you'll put this to bed.
-
Thanks Peter I will contact Hugh. Let you know how I went. Cheers Jerry
-
Blowing up from low res. scans don't usually come out very good but you can just make out the swingarm gusset on the far side of Jims bike.
That just about blows the CMS claim out of the water.
Unless of course they made their early frames with the single plate gussets like the originals.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/JimPomeroy1973pic450l.jpg)
I can't believe this much effort was spent to find out what I said was true, Pomeroy + CMS = B.S..
You’ll have to forgive me for not believing that every statement I read on the Net is based on fact.
-
The number 5 bike was used at the Austrian GP.
I'm pretty sure that after the "surprise win" at the Spanish, he would definately be riding a "Stock" factory Bultaco.
DJ
When we had the evening with Pomeroy on the Saturday night and the race on Sunday some years back North of Brisbane (I forgot the name of the place), he clearly explained that his bike in Spain was a stocker that he bought his bars and some other stuff with him and fitted to it. Later bikes for many races were modified here and there but pretty much stock and later when Bully made him a "special" it went downhill from there and he regretted going away from the standard bikes.
-
The number 5 bike was used at the Austrian GP.
I'm pretty sure that after the "surprise win" at the Spanish, he would definately be riding a "Stock" factory Bultaco.
DJ
When we had the evening with Pomeroy on the Saturday night and the race on Sunday some years back North of Brisbane (I forgot the name of the place), he clearly explained that his bike in Spain was a stocker that he bought his bars and some other stuff with him and fitted to it. Later bikes for many races were modified here and there but pretty much stock and later when Bully made him a "special" it went downhill from there and he regretted going away from the standard bikes.
That would've been the weekend he raced at Coles Creek on the Sunshine Coast and autographed the tank for my mk8 :)
-
That would've been the weekend he raced at Coles Creek on the Sunshine Coast and autographed the tank for my mk8 :)
Would have been for Sunday but where was the Saturday night Pub?, I couldn't be there on the Sunday to race but I was there on Saturday down the front asking all the questions! I had to be a long way South of Brissy (NSW in fact!) early the next morning and one of the few QVMX race days I didn't race in 10 years ironically - but was worth the effort to go the wrong way for the evening, nice guy.
-
Hi,
It was in Pomona Saturday night, I think it was the Town hall,
J P was gracious enough to sign the 2 page spread in "Motocross The Great Leap" (Frank Melling) him on a Mk8 at Daytona .a true gentleman.
-
Hi,
It was in Pomona Saturday night, I think it was the Town hall,
J P was gracious enough to sign the 2 page spread in "Motocross The Great Leap" (Frank Melling) him on a Mk8 at Daytona .a true gentleman.
You raced that day, did you ride the same class? I forgot - mind you in your version after all these years I guessed you lapped him and roosted him while doing so ..... ;D
-
Hi,
no , not me ,I think I was riding my Triumph, but if my memory serves me right, one of the "hillbilly boys" kept him honest.
-
Mic Chadwick (the Hillbillies uncle) on his methonol powered Bully beat him in all the race's I think, and your right, a true gentleman and had a real fun loving nature.....I remember him telling us Joel Robert and himself where always in trouble for practical jokes and shitstirring at the GP's. When I think about it Mark and Micheal, there is probably fewer than half a dozen still racing now that would have been there....just goes to show how many people come and go in our sport....shit, I cant even think of half a dozen now. I remember a heap of cockroaches turned up because there "Weekend at Pomeroy's" was rained out. Jim was a big guy (must have been 6-3 or 4) and when you saw him on a pre 75 bike he absolutely dwarfed it....one of my all time favorite photo's is of him crossed up in a corner with most of his body over the front bars...I'm sure someone can put that photo up. I think you where blocking the track that day with one of your Cee-Zee's Micheal.
-
Cee Zed......Cee Zed......Cee Zed......for gawds sake.paul
-
Joel Robert called then Chee-Zhee's, so thats good enough for me. ;D
-
Joel Robert called then Chee-Zhee's, so thats good enough for me. ;D
But we are Orstraylians so it's ex why zed!
I'll be back in it next year or the year after, just got to get some other things out the way first and then I'll buy a block of nice dirt in SEQ and we'll all have some fun again (not that you're not having fun now).
-
Page 20 of this thread. There is a photo of Jim talking to Joel (am I sounding to familiar?) see the lever covers on Jims bike? Obviously they are blue with a yellow logo. Can anybody out there identify the logo? It's not the Bultaco ""thumb" is it? Cheers Jerry
-
I downloaded the image and blew it up and I can't make head nor tales of the logo.
I can see Oury grips and foam grip spacer but the logo is too blurred to make out.
Just one question though… how is the replica bike going? Must be getting close now? :)
-
Been ticking along behind the scenes. Mums been crook and thats been my focus for the last 3 months but I have her sorted now so I hope to pick up the pace a bit. I get my tank back from Steve Eastham this week and hopefully Greg Wood at Hydroblast will clean up the head and barrel and then they go down to Peter schoene for engine assy. I have everything I need except a swingarm. I'm embarrased to say I bent the f@*king thing in a 20T press trying to push the swingarm pivot bolt out. Not very proud of my performance but that's the truth. Therefore I'm looking for another MK6 unit or even better a MK7 version. I put a post up in "Wanted" but no luck. I've resisted putting photo's up 'cos there's nothing to really show yet. But I will when I get few bits thrown together. Cheers Jerry
-
Surely you can "unbend" it?
-
Muira products were the accessories brand for Bultaco back in the day,could be their logo?
-
Thanks Moto I'll do some investigating. Cheers Jerry
-
Gday Jerry, just getting some long overdue time to join and now start going through some of the these stories and thread's, I lived in Seattle for 3 years fulltime and another 10 year part time and I lived with Brian Rau and worked for his twin Bro Steve Rau, there were 2 other mates Jeff Johnson and Tadd Dean.
They were all gun State MX Pro's in the 70's and they all grew up with Jim and Im still in weekly contact with Brian and Tadd. And just come down to visit me at RD 1 of the MX at Hangtown Cal in May 2011.
Tadd still races vintage in Washington and if anyone knows he would or would possibly definitley have a link over there.
Flick me a email at rholden66@bigpond.com and I will give you their contact details and we can only ask another possibility.
Regards Rosco
-
Page 20 of this thread. There is a photo of Jim talking to Joel (am I sounding to familiar?) see the lever covers on Jims bike? Obviously they are blue with a yellow logo. Can anybody out there identify the logo? It's not the Bultaco ""thumb" is it? Cheers Jerry
(http://i56.tinypic.com/fuw74z.jpg)
(http://i53.tinypic.com/4k8pcn.jpg)
Id rekon its a Bultaco logo Jerry
Cheers KB
-
Thanks KB in lieu of any other info I'm with you. Now I just have to find some black Oury grips and those foam "thumb" guards. Changing the subject slightly I was flicking through an old VMX and came across the No 5 Yamaha you built up. Brought a tear to my eye and some great memories. Well done (retrospectively!) I know Trevor has had his issues but gee it would be good to see him reunited with the bike. Cheers Jerry
-
Jerry...I use Oury grips, they're easily found on eBay on the cheap.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OR-7001-Oury-MX-Motorcycle-Black-Handlebar-Grips-/130561317825?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=ite (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/OR-7001-Oury-MX-Motorcycle-Black-Handlebar-Grips-/130561317825?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=ite)
-
and those foam "thumb" guards.
Like this:
(http://www.bultaco.com/images/16-01-046.jpg)
Look here: http://www.bultaco.com/Steering&Controls.htm (http://www.bultaco.com/Steering&Controls.htm)
-
Jerry , found a couple of pics showing that Bultaco logo they used on the lever covers,
if your still after them, cheers KB
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2qdadl4.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/68djsl.jpg)
-
Thanks KB I agree it looks like the thumb logo to me. I'll get Steve Eastham to knock me up a pair. Personally I reckon they look a bit pox however in the spirit of "authentic replica" on they will go! I'm looking for a replica front # plate, mounts and cable guide. If you know where there is any feel free to let me know. Thanks again Jerry
-
I meant the round logo with what looks like a bit of roost on the bottom, If you check the signed pic with his arms crossed the bike in front of him, on page 22 the lever covers on the throttle side, blue cover with a round yellow/gold logo, the transam pic shows half the logo, the last pic red shirt/ yellow round logo matchs the lever cover, sorry for the mix up mate.
-
OK now I've got it! You are very observant K man. I've never seen it before but I agree it matches the logo on the lever covers. Perhaps someone can help with an even better picture. J
-
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/JimPomeroy2.jpg)
-
Nice photo Firko. Looks like a Trans AMA race somewhere by the white background on the plates. By the way go back a couple of posts and check out the logo on Jims shirt that KB picked up on. What do you reckon? Was it perhaps a fore runner of the Muira range of after market accessories?? J
-
Was checking that out last night jerry to me it looks like a rear wheel roosting with two words under it the second being bultaco "--------- - bultaco " cant ever remember seeing it back in the day, looks like maybe a sponsors/dealers logo ? :)
-
Yet another question mark on this project. Maybe some forum members from USA can shed some light! Over to you guys. Cheers Jerry
-
I meant the round logo with what looks like a bit of roost on the bottom, If you check the signed pic with his arms crossed the bike in front of him, on page 22 the lever covers on the throttle side, blue cover with a round yellow/gold logo, the transam pic shows half the logo, the last pic red shirt/ yellow round logo matchs the lever cover, sorry for the mix up mate.
It's the logo for University Bultaco/CZ in Seattle, Washington. They must have been a local sponsor of Jimbo's.
You can see a pic of the jersey at this link: http://www.wsmchof.com/interview.html
-
Thats it, without the writing it'd look ok on the covers, if you go ahead an get em made jerry i;ll buy a set also let us know $$ Cheers KB
(http://i40.tinypic.com/33mslyd.jpg)
-
Done KB anybody else? J
-
By the way many thanks Tahitian man. Its what I love about this forum. Thanks again mate. Cheers Jerry
-
Yeah i'd be interested ! cheers :)
-
got this from a mate the other day.
http://www.bonhams.com/usa/auction/19679/lot/307/
The ex-Jim Pomeroy 1979 Bultaco Pursang Mk12up for sale.
-
If anyones interested she's nearly finished. I'm just looking for a pair of Telesco's off a MK7. If anybody can help I would appreciate it. Any condition as I'm happy to refurbish as required. I also have to paint the tank and I'm looking for a stencil to replicate the "curve" of the paint between the silver and red if that makes sense and can anybody confirm if there was a black pinstripe to seperate (hide the join!) between the two colours. Thanks Jerry
-
Jerry, If you have any problem getting a stencil or if you need a reference where to place it or paint, i have taken measurements from the centre of the bultaco badge to a few points along the front curve (from original)which i used when i repainted the silver top on my mk5 -cheers
-
PM sent. J
-
Getting towards the end of the project but looking for a pair of Telesco shocks (any condition) as well as info on what was the throttle that came on the Mod 120 MK7 Bulty and if anybody has one they want to part with. I'm planning to drag it up to CD9 if anybody wants to have a look. Cheers Jerry
-
I've got a pair Jerry.....yours for the price of a cold drink my friend. They're actually off a Montesa so I hope there's no cross contamination!
-
As discussed Firko many thanks and you are indeed a scholar and a gentleman. Great to hear your health is improving (sort of!) Hang in their mate and see you at CD my shout. J
-
(http://C:\100CANON\_MG_0002.JPG)
-
(http://[img])[/img]
-
It lives!(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee446/jeremyhealy/_MG_0018.jpg)
-
(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee446/jeremyhealy/_MG_0024.jpg)
Finally worked out how to put foto's up!
-
Yet another view!
(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee446/jeremyhealy/_MG_0025.jpg)
-
looking bloody awesome Jerry 8) you must be very happy with the result :)
-
That is beautiful. You have done a fantastic job Jezza. Has Stevie seen it yet?
He is sure to get movement ;D ;D ;D
Congratulations mate. Regards Mark
-
Top job Jerry 8)
-
Hey Jerry that looks fantastic, give yourself a big pat on the back. Pipe looks awesome too thanks to GMC.
I don't know how you guys find the time for these projects with all that Disco Dancing ;D
Regards Stan
-
Can't wait to see it in the flesh at CD9. Great job.
-
Looks Bloody Beautiful Jerry, JP would be impressed i'm sure ;)
-
That looks awesome Jerry Lee...when are we going to see it in QLD.....if you bring it up I'll show you all my cool JP stuff....keep the fat boy off it mate...he'll break it like his green meanies. ;D
-
That's nice well done!
-
Looks unreal jerry ! just like bimbo's - cant wait to see it(and hear it) in the flesh ;) cheers
-
Thanks Huski its come up well, lot of attention to detail required and on a number of occasions I wondered why I was doing it but I'm glad I perservered.That unmuffled pipe is strictly for display. I have an agreement with GMC however to start it once only at a time and date to be negotiated. J
-
Nice bike Jerry...pity you didn't have time to restore it :'(.
Just kidding.....fabulous job matey, I'm looking forward to seeing it up close and personal
-
Would'nt have happened without those shox Marcos! Thanks again. See you up there. J
-
(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee446/jeremyhealy/IMG_22321.jpg)
Same bike but in vinduro mode. J
-
PS thanks for the forks Stanley!
-
I was very happy with the photos of the Bulty (a couple of post's back). My workmate Dave took them one morning before work. Some people have asked if he would like to do some more. He stresses that he is not a professional but could possibly be tempted by commiserate compensation. If there is any interest out there PM me for contact details. J
-
For those that may be interested type in Spanish GP Motocross 1973 into YOU TUBE. Doesn't go for long but gives an idea of what Jim achieved that day. Cheers J
-
A couple of pics from a mag 4o yr old mag I had stashed away, Would've been a big pissup after that i'd rekon ;)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii576/KAB171/JPSpain_zps65ed7110.jpeg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/KAB171/media/JPSpain_zps65ed7110.jpeg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii576/KAB171/JPSpain2_zps5afa7b75.jpeg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/KAB171/media/JPSpain2_zps5afa7b75.jpeg.html)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii576/KAB171/JPSpain33_zpsbccb9ce7.jpeg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/KAB171/media/JPSpain33_zpsbccb9ce7.jpeg.html)
-
For those that may be interested type in Spanish GP Motocross 1973 into YOU TUBE. Doesn't go for long but gives an idea of what Jim achieved that day. Cheers J
Geez Jerry !! how is that track,first jump,first corner.. :o 8)
Do you have a trackmap to copy :P :P :P
Kim Suñol·130 videos
Nice collection 8)
-
Thanks Kev did you have a look at You Tube? Also even though the photos are B/W do you reckon the springs on the Telescos might be red? They don't look black and you know what that means!!!! J
-
I'd be guessing Jerry but i'd rekon silver, they look a bit lighter than the tank colour, like this.
Cheers KB
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii576/KAB171/jimpom_zps99f0f2c3.jpeg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/KAB171/media/jimpom_zps99f0f2c3.jpeg.html)
-
Maybe but they also look darker than the frame which of course is silver?.. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the MK6's run red Betors in production guise? As this bike was in effect a Pre production MK7 which as we know ran Telesco,'s may be the Telescos were painted red to keep Betor happy????????J
-
Enough replicas for one life time I think A! Did you check out the other vids? It's a gold mine. Happened across the by accident. J
-
Bit hard to follow the lingo but some good old stuff in the first 17 clips, wonder if they've got the full length clips?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmeAsLL1MvM