VMX ........... PRE 82 or EVO or pre 80 or pre 85

[scottm]

Lets sort this out here and now.

My opnion is

PRE 75 PRE 80 PRE 85 ETC ETC.
Simple for the dummies

go for it , and why /

[scottm]

Cat got your tounge /

[evo550]

It's been done to death now and no one gives a shit really...

[scottm]

Really ?

What was the outcome of this "done to death" topic...

Because I notice the heading of this community was OzVMX.

Is there anyone on here from M.A.? M,Q,? M. N.S.W.?..........

I know I would like to here there views , since they take our money for entries and I havnt seen what they put back into V.M.X.

When did our governing body tip into a V.M.X. event ?

They make up the rules , but never answer the questions so many have asked.

And I don't mean to quote chapter and verse of the rules.

[skypig]

Having 5 year eligiblity windows doesn't work for parity due the exponential development that occurred in the '70s.

It's actually quite incredible. From a '74 CR125 (air cooled, 6 inches? Of poorly damped suspension)
7 years later all the Japanese 125s were water cooled with linkage rear suspension matched to (43mm?) forks with 12" travel.

The revolutions continued with disc brakes, power valves and USD forks.

What design change have we seen on MX bikes in the last 7 years?

As someone's slogan says. "It's just old bike racing FFS".

[Tony Two Times]

The original structure of the classes was a good way to start but suggest that things have moved on since they were defined. Seems to me it's time the question is asked, does the current class racing structure provide the best outcome for everyone?

Given that you can only fit so many races in a day, less year brackets and the addition of graded races would make for more realistic and better racing I reckon. For example, a 78 bike would probably have been raced against an 83 bike if that was all the bloke had. Furthermore, a good rider will beat a newer bike most every time (apart from at the pointy end of the performance spectrum where 95% of us don't fit).

Hindsight is 20/20 of course and we're probably past the point of being able to change things to much. And the current system does work well for the most part. But its worth talking about these things as some tweaking can make good things better.

So how 'bout 3 technology classes (say short travel, evolution and disc/water/linkage eras), with A, B, C and Novice grades?

All it would take is for a single club to run it as an experiment for one meeting. Popularity would then determine whether it should continue in that format or not.

And then there's my pet project - over 100kgs on under 125cc. 

[KTM47]

Really ?

What was the outcome of this "done to death" topic...

Because I notice the heading of this community was OzVMX.

Is there anyone on here from M.A.? M,Q,? M. N.S.W.?..........

I know I would like to here there views , since they take our money for entries and I havnt seen what they put back into V.M.X.

When did our governing body tip into a V.M.X. event ?

They make up the rules , but never answer the questions so many have asked.

And I don't mean to quote chapter and verse of the rules.

Maybe the Commission through MA don't answer questions because you're not asking them correctly.

Please note all correspondence to the Commissions must go through the MA office. 

MA does not monitor every FB page or forum so it can answer questions.

Have you read (and responded to) the Commission minutes from this year's meeting.  Maybe it is also time to ask your SCB if they have a Classic MX/DT rep on their subcommittees (MX & DT).

[evo550]

Really ?

What was the outcome of this "done to death" topic...

Because I notice the heading of this community was OzVMX.

Is there anyone on here from M.A.? M,Q,? M. N.S.W.?..........

I know I would like to here there views , since they take our money for entries and I havnt seen what they put back into V.M.X.

When did our governing body tip into a V.M.X. event ?

They make up the rules , but never answer the questions so many have asked.

And I don't mean to quote chapter and verse of the rules.

You don't get "outcomes" from a forum....you get discussion that's all.
If you want change, speak to the organisation that regulates change, follow the process they set down, then you get outcomes......although it may not be the one you want.

[Husky500evo]

      A lot of people just can't seem to come to terms with the concept of a technology based class . The air cooled motor , drum brakes and no linkage rules for Evolution class seem pretty simple to me , but just needs clear guidelines on the eligible components that can be used . Doing away with Evolution class would leave a lot of currently raced bikes obsolete , such as YZ250/465 G & H Yamahas , '80 to '84 twin shock Huskys , Maico Mega 1 & 2s , Can Am MX6s , '80 & '81 KTMs and Honda '80 model CRs . Naming a class as pre '82 seems like a pretty dumb idea to me , seeing that none of the Japanese '81 model MXers would be eligible , except for for the Yamaha YZ250 and YZ465 .
      But a pre '80 class also has some appeal to me and would bring more bikes out that are not often seen , such as Yamaha YZ E & F models , Maico Magnums , Suzuki RM C & N models , Can Am MX4 & 5s , '78 & '79 KTMs , KX Kawasaki A4 & A5s and  '78 & '79 Huskys . If the Evolution class has moved to be run with post classic classes at the nationals , then maybe there is room for a 'pre '80 class at the classic nationals . I have a couple of '79 Maico MC440 Magnums and a '79 Husky CR390 , all in bits , that would be worth putting back together for a pre '80 class . But really , there can only be a limited number of classes to fit into a day's racing , without having the length of races being too short .

[supersenior 50]

Tony. Brisbane MCC recently ran the "Harrisville T-T (Tri- Trak) along similar lines to your suggestion. We ran A B C D grades regardless of bike era based on previous lap times as one round.
Age of rider races regardless of bike era was another round.
Bike capacitiy regardless of era was another round
Bike era regardless of capacity was another round.
The result was riders got more races on one machine, mixed with different riders in the different rounds, and in most cases with the age and grade races race with riders of similar ability.
We then held the Qld Classic and Evolution Championship along conventional lines a month later
The T-T was a great success and brought the average punters into the spotlight
We are Using a similar format for our "SPRINGTIME SPRINT meeting in September.

[supersenior 50]

Scott, it is an interesting issue "MA or in our case MQ dont put anything into the sport"
In 2013 when Canberra pulled out of running the Classic Nationals, MA canvassed clubs to seek a replacement. I can't speak for other states, but MQ asked both Brisbane metropolitan clubs if they would take it on. The committees of both clubs declined which is perfectly their right to do so.
MQ then approached a small group from within the Brisbane MCC to run it under the banner of MQ with that body underwriting the costs and providing some office assistance. Their rationale being that it is too important an event to be allowed to fail.
We went ahead and the event was a success.
The interesting thing was that when promotion started, sup regs published etc the key people in both clubs having rejected the opportunity to host the event then criticised MQ for stepping outside their role and th

[supersenior 50]

Sorry fat fingers. Point being that one time they put into our sport in a positive way and saved the day, they still got flack from people who benefited from that initiative. Figure that out. I had/have issues with the management of our sport, but give credit where it's due.

[Slakewell]

It has been done to death on here ( try the search option )
IMO times are changing and as we get older winning is not as important I dont have to buy a bike just because it the most likely to win I now buy and race what stirs the soul and gives me the most fun and I dont give a F#ck where I finish.

[KTM47]

It has been done to death on here ( try the search option )
IMO times are changing and as we get older winning is not as important I dont have to buy a bike just because it the most likely to win I now buy and race what stirs the soul and gives me the most fun and I dont give a F#ck where I finish.

I don't give a F#ck where I finish until someone passes me who I think I should be in front off.  I like getting a good start (easy on a 490 Maico) and then take it from there.  At the Queensland Champs when they started the Pre 75 125 with us in one start I thought it was funny when a 125 went by me in the corner.  I had great pleasure blowing him away on the straight.  I then slowed up and let him back by.  Putting together a whole races becomes harder as you get older.

[Morpheus]

so if someone would humour me for a minute... are there some evo bikes that dont qualify for evo racing? As in a pre 81 japanese mx'er not qualifying for pre 82?? What the FAQ? Can you run it in another (later) period class? 

I presume there are additional technology rules in play?

Like others I am old and dont give a rats about where I place but simply want to get out there on my favorite old bike and run it as hard as I can.

Fortunately in WA it seems if you are a veteran you can run any bike you like (even moderns) at classic MX events

[tony27]

Evo is a technology class so different manufacturers bikes have different years where they are still eligible ie 81 for Yamaha YZs(all DT175s would be eligible), something like 84 for Husqvarna, 79/80 for Suzuki, Honda & Kawasaki.
It does almost sound as though pre82 is just another name for Evo but with a year limit as well from what you're asking

[80-85 husky]

wr 400 husky twinshock drum brakes but...watercooled engine..on yr bike sunshine

[bigk]

So hypothetically if pre '82 were to be considered, do people want a true pre'82 class where one could ride a 1981 Honda CR250 or 1981 RM250 or would it be a  pre'82 class with technology limitations (ie: no water cooling, disc brakes or linkages ) as some clubs have adopted? The second example is not really a pre '82 class no matter how you look at it & seems a perfect way to confuse pretty much everyone.
K

[Morpheus]

OK, so it seems they just call it pre 82 because its easier than calling it drum brake, aircooled, non-linkage, old piece of shit class. Fairy nuff. What is really required is a bit of clarity to prevent confusion. But I guess at our age, someone is always going to be confused 

[bigk]

No linkage, air cooled & drum brake is Evolution class (EVO), been that forever & no confusion there.
K

[09.0]

Done to death and ends in a shit fight.
Having said that  Pre 82 is no harder than the word evo. A new punter has to learn how it all works, just like I did. It amazes me how we talk as though we have to dumb down things as if the newby is a dumb arse.
The only hard bit is in the fact the of differing technologies in this era. You can call the class toasted sandwiches if you wanted to. Its just a name. The yanks have names and not year cut off dates.
Pre 82 was only invented due to some that believe that the rules should reflect a form of pigeon holing bikes into their era and cross pollinating ,if you will, should not be allowed. The power(s) that be disagree and so do some punters. So those people took matters into their own hands in the form of pre 82, which turned into a major shit fight, mainly due to many bikes not complying to the pre 82 class rules. Simply, they had parts that were off linkage bikes.
When using pre 78 parts on a pre 75 bike is considered a no no, as to any other era that has a name associated with a year cut off (pre 65 etc). Yet evo seems to be open slather. Thats not to say there aren't punters with later parts on their bikes such as 88 cr250 forks in an 84 cr250 for e.g.
My evo bike was built around a motor. I bought everything else. I truly believed then and still do now that out of era parts should not be okay on your bike. I built my bike in 2010, way before all this crap started.
I will also say that I had nothing to do with concept of pre82, even though I both understand why it was done ( wish it hadn't due to the rift it has caused) and as you have read (if you have gotten this far) I believe in the reason behind the pre 82 shit storm.
At the end of the day, vmx is far from black and white. What about 2017 shocks? Fat bars? Billet parts? Then add humans into the mix and here we are!  a shit fight thats strained friendships and made enemies. Thats the worst part. I love my vmx friends and to have them strained over this subject has taken a toll, even though people are so over talking about it things are getting better. The sooner pre 82 is dropped for the benefit of vmx the better. Not because its wrong...

[XC83]

wr 400 husky twinshock drum brakes but...watercooled engine..on yr bike sunshine

Plenty of air cooled 84 Husky's to go around though. (PS there was a 250 L/C as well in 84)

[80-85 husky]

I had a new one and raced it....then STUPIDLY sold it for 800 bucks

[Mick D]

Well written Brad,

Done to death and ends in a shit fight.
Having said that  Pre 82 is no harder than the word evo. A new punter has to learn how it all works, just like I did. It amazes me how we talk as though we have to dumb down things as if the newby is a dumb arse.
The only hard bit is in the fact the of differing technologies in this era. You can call the class toasted sandwiches if you wanted to. Its just a name. The yanks have names and not year cut off dates.
Pre 82 was only invented due to some that believe that the rules should reflect a form of pigeon holing bikes into their era and cross pollinating ,if you will, should not be allowed. The power(s) that be disagree and so do some punters. So those people took matters into their own hands in the form of pre 82, which turned into a major shit fight, mainly due to many bikes not complying to the pre 82 class rules. Simply, they had parts that were off linkage bikes.
When using pre 78 parts on a pre 75 bike is considered a no no, as to any other era that has a name associated with a year cut off (pre 65 etc). Yet evo seems to be open slather. Thats not to say there aren't punters with later parts on their bikes such as 88 cr250 forks in an 84 cr250 for e.g.
My evo bike was built around a motor. I bought everything else. I truly believed then and still do now that out of era parts should not be okay on your bike. I built my bike in 2010, way before all this crap started.
I will also say that I had nothing to do with concept of pre82, even though I both understand why it was done ( wish it hadn't due to the rift it has caused) and as you have read (if you have gotten this far) I believe in the reason behind the pre 82 shit storm.
At the end of the day, vmx is far from black and white. What about 2017 shocks? Fat bars? Billet parts? Then add humans into the mix and here we are!  a shit fight thats strained friendships and made enemies. Thats the worst part. I love my vmx friends and to have them strained over this subject has taken a toll, even though people are so over talking about it things are getting better. The sooner pre 82 is dropped for the benefit of vmx the better. Not because its wrong...

There are so many good people with varying opinions that they are entitled to.
The only ones that I cannot stomach in this community is the rare THIEVING GRUB.
It is such a shame that MA could have and should have just clearly sorted this shit before rifts grew.

Saying that though, I now more easily tolerate SOME differences of opinions. Friends are friends.
For example; I except the VTR decision to make a cut off point to preserve the notion of old trail bikes,,,,
 and its not like they are short on numbers to prove their idea.

[matcho mick]

eggszakery MD,you accept  ,

[Mick D]

eggszakery MD,you accept  ,

Arhh that dam spell checker mate,, so that's how you spell accept,,, doh 

[matcho mick]

um spelling was ok,just wrong context ,

[dirtrumpy]

Is my 82 Sonic 500 now pre 85

[bigk]

Depends on which club(s) you ride with but if you turn up at the PC Nationals in S.A in August, you'll be eligible for the EVO class where it's been since the rules were drafted a lot of years ago now, (air cooled, no linkage, drum brake).
K

[supersenior 50]

Bring it up to Qld for the SPRINGTIME SPRINTS where you'll ride with the Evolution Class (as per the rules) no confusion. Six races for $90.00 entry. Ride it in Pre85 also if you want more track time on the one bike.

[HeavenVMX]

Mike your Can Am Sonic is perfectly legal for Pre82 as it has been for the last two years and is legal for the Evolution class as set out in the MOMS. The bike is identical to the 1981 model except for stickers.

Pre82 is just a name to allow the historically correct interpretation, at least as far as Heaven VMX is concerned, to be used.

You need to ignore virtually all of this thread. The only accurate post is Brad's

Every single Pre82 bike is legal for the Evolution class as shown in the MOMS but Evolution bikes that use parts from linkage, water cooled and/or disc brake models are not eligible for Pre82. It is that simple. Machines that continued drum brakes, none linkage suspension and air cooled engines past 1981 are considered carry over models. Eg 1982 IT 250/465 or Huskies etc. 1980/81 models that have water cooled engines and/or linkage suspension are excluded disc brakes were not an issue in 1981.

This has been done to death and Heaven VMX as a club decided that the interpretation of evolution currently embraced by MA is not historically correct. Therefore Pre82 (for want of a better name) was introduced at Heaven VMX and another large Queensland VMX club. The MA Commission have personally indicated to me that this is completely OK and is not an issue.

Given that this thread now seems to be a play for your patronage there is plenty of racing at Heaven VMX to go this year. Hope to see you at Dargle on your lovely Metisse along with the Sonic. 8 races for $70 although I didn't realise this was an auction site

This is our one and only post on this thread.

[211]

if you wanted to have a support class at club level for Deckson Daredevils or anything else then I would personally indicate that this is completely OK and not an issue

[supersenior 50]

No auction, just an invitation.

[Ted]

Mike your Can Am Sonic is perfectly legal for Pre82 as it has been for the last two years and is legal for the Evolution class as set out in the MOMS. The bike is identical to the 1981 model except for stickers.

Pre82 is just a name to allow the historically correct interpretation, at least as far as Heaven VMX is concerned, to be used.

You need to ignore virtually all of this thread. The only accurate post is Brad's

Every single Pre82 bike is legal for the Evolution class as shown in the MOMS but Evolution bikes that use parts from linkage, water cooled and/or disc brake models are not eligible for Pre82. It is that simple. Machines that continued drum brakes, none linkage suspension and air cooled engines past 1981 are considered carry over models. Eg 1982 IT 250/465 or Huskies etc. 1980/81 models that have water cooled engines and/or linkage suspension are excluded disc brakes were not an issue in 1981.

This has been done to death and Heaven VMX as a club decided that the interpretation of evolution currently embraced by MA is not historically correct. Therefore Pre82 (for want of a better name) was introduced at Heaven VMX and another large Queensland VMX club. The MA Commission have personally indicated to me that this is completely OK and is not an issue.

Given that this thread now seems to be a play for your patronage there is plenty of racing at Heaven VMX to go this year. Hope to see you at Dargle on your lovely Metisse along with the Sonic. 8 races for $70 although I didn't realise this was an auction site

This is our one and only post on this thread.

"Pre 82 ( for want of a better name )"

At the first meeting ( 2015 Conondale Classic ) that the Pre 82 concept was run it was called Twinshock with no confusion whatsoever. Why the naming was changed to Pre 82 is beyond me

[allan hughes]

ive got a rockhopper and a grassgrub
dave ,can they race with the deckson 

[211]

not sure the clutch would survive but Im up for it 

[dmcoz]

It would be simple to classify this era/class as Twin-Shock.
Being Air-cooled, no linkage, drum brakes, conventional forks (no upside down).
Then you can mix up any part from any era with any bike as long as it meets this simple criteria. It could not be any easier to regulate and police. Make it a class to be creative.
Those that want to cheque book it can and those that want to be creative can also. Those chasing sheep stations still need to twist the throttle.

[09.0]

It would be simple to classify this era/class as Twin-Shock.
Being Air-cooled, no linkage, drum brakes, conventional forks (no upside down).
Then you can mix up any part from any era with any bike as long as it meets this simple criteria. It could not be any easier to regulate and police. Make it a class to be creative.
Those that want to cheque book it can and those that want to be creative can also. Those chasing sheep stations still need to twist the throttle.

You haven't put forward  anything new here. That's what most of Europe does. Not a fan myself of bastardising bikes to meet a very loose criteria. None of the other classes we have do that. Why is evo so special?

[dmcoz]

You pretty well answered your own statement - "most of europe do it" and the reason is simple - it eliminates any ambiguity and everyone gets on with racing/riding - not arguing about what is correct or not.
Keep the rules for Pre 78 and before as its fairly straight forward as to what is correct or not and then open this class up. Everything after this era is basically a modern bike and shouldn't be mixed up on a "vintage" track.

[tony27]

What Brad is getting at is in Europe people are taking linkage bikes & welding shock mounts to the frame & swingarm, using late 90s conventional forks with brackets to anchor brake plates.
I've even seen hubs machined to run a DLS brake plate on each side of the front wheel
Would you really like seeing a class of these bikes running at a VMX event? Sure Evo isn't perfect but at least the bikes actually existed back in the early 80s

[09.0]

What Tony said.
All I did say was that your 'revolation' already exists elsewhere 
Bastardising bikes isn't a priority in my book.
Nor is it an answer imo